Posted on 12/01/2003 11:19:05 PM PST by Badray
Tonight was different than most of my evenings. I've spend many evenings involved in political discussions, but this one was at a (Wesley) Clark for President meetup. I was in the belly of the beast. One non-FReeper friend met me there, but soon left saying that to stay would just be 'too painful.' Perhaps I should have followed him out the door.
But, I didn't. And here, to the best of my recollection is what transpired over the next two hours.
MeetUp.com
I had heard about the meeting tonight from an announcement in the local paper and since it was close by, I decided that I wanted to see who supports Wesley Clark and why. There was lots of good news for the ABC (anyonebutclark) people. Ranging from poor planning to poor turnout, the meeting in my estimation was less than successful although they were thrilled with the turnout.
The meeting was in the middle of the restaurant - not in a private room - which didn't allow for them showing a video that they brought. They made reservations for 20 people and had 9 people show up including me. This was there 3rd meeting in this area (Pittsburgh Metropolitan) and they were happy to have 9 people. (Sidebar - at our 2 Toomey meetups thus far, we have had 20 & 22 people). The people themselves were very friendly. There was a teacher, 2 lawyers, an HR manager, a retired chemist, and 2 or 3 homemakers among them.
When we introduced ourselves, they all were ecstatic about being able to vote for Clark. I, in the interest of (almost) full disclosure, told them that I wasn't committed to any candidate yet and wanted to see why Clark was their choice. I didn't go into more detail at that point. They were happy to have an opportunity to try to 'convert' me. Little did they know they my agenda was to highjack the meeting and to see if it was possible to convert them.
One man who was pretty serious about the whole thing kept trying to get them to move into talking about the tactics, strategy, and logistics of campaigning. I kept asking questions and moving them away from anything substantial.
They all thought that Clark was extremely intelligent and getting better at his responses. D'uh. He's had a lifetime and two months. Thrilled at doing so well on the Letterman Show, I deflated that balloon by telling that Letterman never asks hard questions.
They talked of the last two debates and were pleased that the 9 dwarves are not attacking each other, but going after Bush. I countered that they haven't distinquished themselves yet either or shown enough difference between them to make a decision. That's why I had such a hard time trying to decide between them .
I was asked if I would vote for Bush if I couldn't find an acceptable democrat or if I would sit out. My reply was that if I found none of them acceptable, I might vote 3rd party. They cringed at that, remembering the 2000 Florida election where Nader cost algore the race. (Except when Bush stole it) When the serious guy told me that sitting out or voting 3rd party was ineffective and tandamount to voting for the incumbent, I replied that my vote was too important to cast for someone or something that I didn't believe in. That warmed the cockles of their heart even if the didn't get me to say that I'd vote for anyone to get rid of Bush.
That was their main focus. I asked who their 2nd choice would be if Clark was no longer in the race. Almost in unison, the answer was ANY ONE just to get rid of Bush. They really hate the man. Many of you know that I have not been his biggest fan, but their hatred is almost pathological in it's intensity.
When they started to attack Bush on Iraq and repeated all of the talking points of the DNC, I couldn't take it any longer. I raised my voice and told them that I voted reluctantly for Bush because I couldn't stand algore and although I wasn't pleased with a lot of Bush's policies, he was, and is right on Iraq and the overseas WoT.
The one lady lawyer started with Bush stealing the election. I stopped her immediately and told her to read up on the Electoral College and she would understand how our system works. Besides, none of the recounts showed algore won. I think that I really took them by surprise, because I was quite adamant.
They started on our soldiers dying for Bush and oil and Halliburton, yada, yada, yada. I responded that the war was just and it was the right thing to do. They shut up pretty quick when I told them (it's true) that my God-child's husband was just killed there last month.
My work was almost done. One couple got up to leave and then everyone did. They never showed the video that they brought. They gave it to me in the hopes of winning me over. I left without blowing my cover. I must be a better actor than I thought.
In conclusion, I doubt that, without lobotomies, there is any hope of converting any of these people. They really believe the democrat crap. I was treated courteously throughout and although I wasn't totally honest with them, I tried not to outright lie either. I am unsure of who gets my vote next November.
One bright spot, when I mentioned Hillary, there was almost a spontaneous expression of hope that she would just go away. As a candidate, they all thought that she had too many negatives and drew the most intense reactions and that she could sink the democrats chances of taking back the White House.
Who are you considering voting for?
Yeah, but isn't that the only one that matters? ;-)
"I don't think Clinton did any better or worse than Bush or Reagan, and lying under oath about screwing an intern (in my opinion) is not the worst thing in the world, and certainly not anything to be impeached over."
Are you sure that you are on the right forum? In order to deny a plaintiff her day in court, the POTUS lied under oath and conspired with others to do the same. That is classic definition of "high crimes and misdemeanors." As you may know "high" refers to the office, not to the crime. And this was the least of his offenses that he SHOULD have been impeached over.
Well, he is a bit arrogant..."
So?
"...and he has told lies...for example, do you remember that he said he signed a patient's rights bill in Texas? He never did; he refused to do so. The governor of Texas is so weak that the Texas legislature can pass a law without the governor's signature. That's fine. I just don't like that he lied about it."
I'd take your word for it because you have never lied to me, but on this forum statements of 'fact' have to be backed up by evidence. Do you have a source for that other than your memory?
"I also don't like the fact that he took only fifteen minutes to review the record of someone about to be executed (his predecessor usually took a couple of days) and that the only person whose sentence he commuted was a serial killer."
You know for a 'fact' that he only thought about it for 15 minutes? And if it is fact, is that wrong? The person has been through a trial and a series of appeals. Especially in well publicized cases of heinous crimes, why do you need 'days' to decide that someone is deserving of the death penalty? Can you provide info on this 'serial killer' and the decision? I've never heard this accusation before.
"I lived in Texas the entire time he was governor and I was not impressed; I did not support Bush in the 2000 election..."
That seems quite evident. No further proof is required, but if you don't mind telling - Who did you vote for?
"and would have preferred Mc Cain, who I feel is a man of principle."
Principle? McCain? Only if you are not ascribing Republican principles to him. He is one of the most anti liberty Senators to carry the GOP label. He is a smoking nazi. He is in favor of gun control. He wrote the unconstitutional campaign finance reform law. The Democrats wanted him to run. What does that tell you about his 'principles'?
"Bush reminds me of a fraternity boy."
It's okay for clinton to get oral sex and force himself on women and lie about - AND GET DISBARRED OVER IT, and that's okay. But Bush reminds you of a 'fraternity boy'? As I said earlier, I am an established Bush basher - for his policies. Your complaints are merely sophomoric. I repeat my earlier question: Are you sure that you are on the right forum?
"As for their hatred of Bush, well...call it revenge."
Revenge? For what? For winning? Or are you one of those who don't understand the Electoral College and thinks he stole the election?
"That's the same thing they said about conservatives during the Clinton era."
Bush has the House and nominal control of the Senate and he is still giving the Dems a lot of what they want. Clinton fought Congress every step of the way and the few things that we got - Welfare Reform, for one - he promised to undo as soon as he could. Clinton didn't give the GOP anything.
"Good point. I didn't think about that angle. For another view, see the next comment from 'never4get' which is also a good point.
"Great strategy although how substantial could anything they have had to say be."
Who can argue with that?
Bush will probably get my vote IF he doesn't extend or renew the so called AWB, even if he continues to tick me off on other less serious (series)issues. If he does sign off on it, my vote will probably be a protest vote, maybe even for you. Are you running? ;-) Or a write in. Because at that point, I don't really care who gets in.
Thanks, but after being married twice, and facing down the Mafia (that's a story for another day) and the IRS (another organized crime outfit) on more than one occassion, I don't scare easily.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=816919&mesg_id=816919
It's amazing how a bunch of losers who think they're superior can be so clueless in logic and reality! DAMN!
Then why did you even bother going?? What are you going to do when the rats infiltrate our sides meetings?
Remember... They believe themselves to be vastly more intelligent than us "redneck" freepers! Check it out for a good laugh!
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