Terri's Fight - (Daily Thread/Updates) November 14-18

Various | November 14, 2003 | sweetliberty

[sweetliberty]

(Thread 8 - November 14-18)

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Link back to thread 7 (Nov. 11-14)

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Contained in Thread 7:

Radio interview with one of Michael's ex-girlfriends, transcript from CBS News Sunday Morning - Sunday 11-09-03 (Martha Teischner reports over a series of pre-recorded video clips in this news magazine's lead story...), possible link to collusion in the legal proceedings involving attorney George Felos (representing Michael Schiavo) and the neurologist Dr. Peter Bambakidis (court appointed, independent, examining physician), information on Judge Greer not being a judge, Tiger Bay Club Schiavo Debate Info, Michael Schiavo charged with perjured testimony, Michael Schiavo is this month's "black boot" award winner from conspiracyworld.com, Schiavo case timeline and 2 informative letters to Gov. Bush.

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Ckick on pic for Terri's website

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This thread serves as a place for posting all new general information and references, along with links following Terri's case, plus information on cable news and talk radio shows dealing with the issue, court cases and press releases. This is also the place to post contact information, prayers and general discussion.

If you have something that qualifies as BREAKING NEWS or FRONT PAGE NEWS, please post it on a separate thread in that category in order to give it maximum exposure and then post a link to the article/thread here so that it will be included in the next update of links. Also, if you post links to articles from original sources and there is also a thread on FR, please link to the FR thread. Many original links become corrupt over time and we want to be able to access the information at will.

ATTENTION friends of Terri! I have been asked by the folks in Florida to post the following message:

PLEASE HONOR THIS REQUEST FROM TAMPA BAY, FLORIDA: DO NOT PUT NAME AND TOWN or other personal info of TERRI VOLUNTEERS in public posts on the Terri threads. If in doubt, DELETE THEIR NAME OUT!!! Please do not post personal addresses and phone #s, towns re: Terri's volunteers and her family. PLEASE SEND PEOPLE TO terrisfight.org for the Foundation Address. Thanks.

Many thanks to all of you who are helping keep FReepers and others up to date with information and for all your efforts in making this thread work. All the research, transcripts, prayers and contact information are invaluable. Special thanks to Calpernia for the header graphic.

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Latest threads on Terri's Case:

Terri Schiavo, life insurance, and insurers duty to cancel if beneficiary is trying to kill insured

Governor Sidetracks Schiavo 's Lawsuit

Oregon Bishop Speaks Out in the Case of Terri Schiavo

A thousand words about the Terri Schiavo you never knew

Florida governor, lawmakers defend 'Terri's Law'

Schiavo's case is really about religious right

Roy Moore:Media 'will not print the truth' (While this article isn't only about Terri, Judge Moore does address the issue in this interview)

Remove Dennis Kucinich's Feeding Tube! (Terry Schiavo's Case By Ann Coulter!)

[ruoflaw]

Thanks for the Ping!

[cyn]

It's on NOW -- first story on!!

[msmagoo]

Greer is probably following the law, as unfair as it seems. I don't know whether he has discretion to schedule the guardianship hearing immediately or not but Pat Anderson can always file a motion to demand a hearing, the same way Felos files motions to speed things up. In Greer's mind, if the Constitutionality lawsuit is decided in MS's favor, the guardianship hearing will be moot.

I think from what Felos said today (on the radio), he intends to force the Schindlers to carry out the dehydration/starvation order imposed by Greer EVEN IF Michael loses custody of Terri. After all, the court ordered it, so it must be good for Terri!

I'm appalled!

[HiTech RedNeck]

I think from what Felos said today (on the radio), he intends to force the Schindlers to carry out the dehydration/starvation order imposed by Greer EVEN IF Michael loses custody of Terri. After all, the court ordered it, so it must be good for Terri!

But if Michael loses his standing cannot the new guardian petition for the recission of the order?

[Theodore R.]

if Michael loses his standing

It seems that Michael R. Schivao has more friends in "high places" than most of us thought. He seems to have the whole FL judiciary, Repubicans and all, jumping at his feet.

[bvw]

ALL rights are a person's. A free persons. Those include the right to modesty. The right to "be secure in their possesions".

There is a right to privacy.

Does the Federal Government have the *authority* by our grant to it, to restrain that right with regard to certain private behaviours? Where would that authority be given in the Constitution? No where. Interstate commerce?

Most private behaviours have NO significant component of interstate commerce.

Do the States, individually, have such authority? If their charter or established practise allows it. Sure. And they have to. It is to the States to pursue criminal acts, a duty.

Does the FEDERAL Constitutional protections to indivial rights such as found Bill of Rights apply to the States? Before the 14th Amendment, I'd say yes, after the 14th, everybody seems to say yes. Although the Federal Courts are inconsistent -- some clearly specified rights especially protected in the BOR have NOT received much protection from the courts.

That includes a "privacy" right as basic as the freedom to travel unmolested in a reasonable and non-dangerous manner from point A to point B. While the BOR is clear we should be secure in our persons and efects, the courts allow random stops and checkpoints!

The right to be secure in our places, unmolested by the government certainly *allows* for us to perform actions unacceptable in public. Get drunk at home, that's fine. In public ... that's a fair crime -- that is it should be a crime. In public, there is a danger to others, and even a bad example. If a LOCALITY wants to enforce acceptable PUBLIC behaviours, even if they are cosmetic, more power to them. Locally people have considerable ability to change the laws and their enforcement per the requirements of their particular place and time.

But even in privacy, WE can not allow crimes such as murder, assault, theft, etc. to occur -- it is proper to make sure those "private" actions are criminal, even when committed in complete privacy, even for most of them -- when all parties agree in some vile contract, say in assisted "suicide".

But we have to give the greatest respect to the Liberty of judgement of free, sane, adults. For the sake of Liberty, and even potential Redemption, the presumption must be that the free, sane adult had some good reason to perform some questionabe action, rather than to presume in micro-detailed code and regulation a lengthy written code has better judgement than an adult. No shelf of written codes has one whit of judgement or reason. They, at best, and some are th best, represent distilled and carefully considered judgements and reasonings, but of themselves they are have no judgement, nor reason. Only a fellow human can apply them, can show reason and judgement. All respect is due that fellow human, first and ever foremost.

Sometimes lengthy micro-detailed codes of regulation upon conduct are necessary -- but still, should a adult go seemingly afoul of them every benefit of benevolent consideration must be given to that adult's action.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is one aspect of that benevolence of consideration towards anothers actions. That type of respect is intrinsic to true modesty, to crafting a virtue out privacy.

Yes, privacy is a right. A good right.

But to say privacy includes a protection from government interference in killing someone else, or even killing an almost born baby, or a fetus of human form .. that is a false definition of privacy, a vile attempt at deception to cover evil.

That common, yet untrue, statement you repeated that "there is no right to privacy", what then does it mean? Some mean it in a restricted sense, that the Constition, the Bill of Righst and the amendments do not specifically mention a "right to privacy". Even that limited "dictionary-level" reading is not quite true. The BOR's proections against search and seizure are a right to a type of privacy.

What I think is more meant by those throwing that false motto around, are somethings we all should resist. One is the concept that the government rations out rights to us, that the govenment is the source of rights or "privileges"-- like the privilege of driving. Well driving -- a form of traveling -- is a right! A right that the government may and should reguate, yet it is a right and not a privilege.

Two is that the government has all the privilege to interfere in and ascertain, to their wants every and any action we might enage in. That we, individuals, may not expect that any quarter, corner, or moment of our lives may not be totally open to arbitrary review by some government agent, panel, or court.

Those two concepts, as ways of viewing our rights are hallamrks of a monarchy, of a tyranny, of a land where the people are subjects of the state, and not the proprieters and masters of the state. By our founding we are the latter, and by that founding bloody and long WAR of a revolution did we SEPERATE and BIRTH our free nation.

Let us not be a late-term abortion of a nation by entertaining such abortive concepts as "there is no right to privacy"!

There is a right to privacy, to freedom of action, to Liberty. Period. Stand up for it!

[Lone Voice in the hinterlands]

Yeah but if the parents are the guaridans they could move Terri to another state another country, right?

In other words, before anybody could starve terri to death they would have to find her first.

I bet some catholic nuns would grant sanctuary somewhere...

[msmagoo]

Well, as MS loves to tell us, "the court found...that Terri's wish was to die"...so if he loses guardianship, the new guardian would have to challenge the previous ruling for Michael, somehow, by arguing that he abused his position as guardian and made false statements, or something along those lines. If MS is removed as guardian, for neglect, conflict of interest or whatever, the petition would be drawn up to reflect those findings. Basically, the ruling by Greer to remove the tube still stands, though it's under a stay while Wolfson determines whether she can be rehabilitated or whether she is PVS. After seeing his credentials, and knowing that the Schindlers opposed his appointment, I'm not too hopeful that he will find Terri to be non-vegetative. However, he met with Jeb Bush today, so who knows.

[HiTech RedNeck]

But even in privacy, WE can not allow crimes such as murder, assault, theft, etc. to occur -- it is proper to make sure those "private" actions are criminal, even when committed in complete privacy, even for most of them -- when all parties agree in some vile contract, say in assisted "suicide".

[ok, now you turn the other face and say]

But we have to give the greatest respect to the Liberty of judgement of free, sane, adults. For the sake of Liberty, and even potential Redemption, the presumption must be that the free, sane adult had some good reason to perform some questionabe action, rather than to presume in micro-detailed code and regulation a lengthy written code has better judgement than an adult. No shelf of written codes has one whit of judgement or reason. They, at best, and some are th best, represent distilled and carefully considered judgements and reasonings, but of themselves they are have no judgement, nor reason. Only a fellow human can apply them, can show reason and judgement. All respect is due that fellow human, first and ever foremost.

Are you another shill for the deathies? We do not execute serial killer rapists on the sort of hearsay that this court ruled was a valid expression of Terri's wishes. Is the right to live something which is to be sacrificed on a whim? Turn your first face, above. It should be your only face.

[Helix]

That would help. Perhaps it would be better if doctors could not withhold basic treatment like food/water without a living will or permission of someone who holds a health care power-of-attorney on behalf of the patient.

If the right to privacy is presumtve, then why isn't the right to life? Of the two, it is the one that is explicitly listed in the Constitution.

[msmagoo]

If the Schindlers win sole custody of Terri, Felos would try to file an injunction to keep them from taking her to a non-Death Cult state where she can live out her life in peace. There will probably be a state-appointed guardian in place even if MS is removed, to prevent the Schindlers from taking her away, while Felos files more pathetic appeals free of charge for the "model husband."

[Helix]

presumtve=presumptive

[Lone Voice in the hinterlands]

You Wrote:
If the Schindlers win sole custody of Terri, Felos would try to file an injunction to keep them from taking her to a non-Death Cult state where she can live out her life in peace. There will probably be a state-appointed guardian in place even if MS is removed, to prevent the Schindlers from taking her away, while Felos files more pathetic appeals free of charge for the "model husband."

My reply:
Well in that case the adage "act now and ask for forginvess later" would apply. Like I'm saying IF the Schindlers would ever get Guardianship.

[HiTech RedNeck]

"the court found...that Terri's wish was to die".

And as Ann Coulter points out, she hates deer hunting after seeing 'Bambi' and then goes the next day and orders venison, probably venison a la Ted Nugent. That is what "living wills" and "advance health care directives" were supposed to be for, to solemnize the decision process and take the whim, the emotion, out of the choice to forego treatment (and note that food was not legally considered treatment when Terri allegedly made her alleged statements). Now they are mere formalities to be swept aside if someone who stands to gain a windfall which was supposed to have been used for the ward's benefit, can tell a convincing enough lie.

[Lone Voice in the hinterlands]

I foudn this article on Judge Greer ona web site.
is is from the A/P (Associated Press)

Judge in Life or Death Case Considered Conservative, Compassionate
By Vickie Chachere Associated Press Writer
Published: Oct 25, 2003


PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (AP) - Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer has been called a murderer and equated with the Roman governor who condemned Jesus to death. He has been vilified in Internet chat rooms and has received death threats by e-mail.
Greer is the judge who granted Terri Schiavo's husband permission to remove her feeding tube in one of the longest and most contentious right-to-life battles. His decision was second-guessed and essentially overridden by the Florida Legislature and Gov. Jeb Bush last week.

Following judicial code of conduct, Greer has been silent about the public debate over the Schiavo case and the criticism he has faced. He declined a request for an interview.

But those who know the 61-year-old probate judge say he is a prudent jurist who probably agonized over his decisions.

"He is such a good and decent man and to have this kind of rap being put on him right now is so unfair," said Mary Repper, a political strategist who has helped Greer's campaigns. "If ever this was to be put into the hands of someone who is going to be fair and do the right thing, George was the right person."

Through four years of hearings and legal wrangling, Greer considered Michael Schiavo's request to remove his severely brain-damaged wife's feeding tube against the wishes of her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler.

A heart attack in 1990 left Terri Schiavo, now 39, in a persistently vegetative state and court-appointed doctors believe there is no hope of recovery. Greer ruled Michael Schiavo showed "clear and convincing" evidence his wife did not want to be kept alive artificially and permitted him to end her nourishment.

The extraordinary reversal of his ruling by Bush and the Legislature will now become the central issue in a new legal fight over the separation of powers that will be waged to overturn what's now known as "Terri's Law."

While Greer has become a key figure in the international news event, few outside of Pinellas County know the man who friends describe as conservative, religious and particularly sensitive to protecting the disabled.

Greer is legally blind and cannot drive. While his condition doesn't hamper his abilities on the bench, colleagues and others said in interviews last week it gives him a perspective in dealing with the rights of the impaired few jurists have.

"He is so conscientious anyway, you put a case involving human life in front of him and it makes him even more careful," said Ed Armstrong, a Clearwater attorney who describes Greer as his mentor. "It's been an ordeal for him too."

Greer is a member of a conservative Baptist church which recently advocated keeping Terri Schiavo alive in a church newsletter. A moderate Republican, Greer served on the Pinellas County Commission for eight years before running unopposed for a circuit judgeship in 1992.

Repper and former Pinellas County Commissioner Charles Rainey said the fact that no one opposed the quiet, studious Greer speaks volumes for how well he is regarded in Pinellas County.

"He's doing what the law says to do. I am sure he struggles with himself, knowing George," Rainey said. "The man did everything he was asked to do as far as checking out the case, checking out the medical situation and he did it two or three times."

Greer is known for answering his own telephone in chambers and until recently being easily accessible to the press, characteristics that his friends say are holdovers from his days of being an elected official.

Born in Brooklyn, N.Y., Greer graduated from Clearwater High School. He graduated from the University of Florida law school and was a successful zoning attorney in Clearwater when he was elected to the county commission in 1984. He been a judge since 1992 and is up for re-election next year.

Michael Schiavo first asked the probate court for permission to disconnect his wife's feeding tube in 1998, saying his wife had told him that she never wanted to be kept alive artificially. Her parents disagree. Two other judges handled the case before it was passed to Greer.

Greer turned down repeated requests from the Schindlers to order therapy for their daughter or to dismiss Michael Schiavo as her guardian. Just this week, Greer set a hearing in November, nearly a year after the Schindlers' last motion for a new guardian, to discuss that issue.

The Schindlers' attorneys attempted to have Greer removed from the case in recent weeks, saying he had improperly discussed the case with others. An appeals court decided Greer would stay.

The Schiavo case is not the only time Greer has been faced with the issue of removing a feeding tube from a vegetative patient. In 2000, the wife and grown children of St. Petersburg attorney Blair Clark faced off in Greer's courtroom after Clark collapsed from a heart attack.

Clark had a living will which said he did not want a feeding tube or respirator if he was determined to be in a permanent vegetative state. But his Chinese-born wife - who disputed her husband was vegetative and believed he could hear her - wanted to try acupuncture and medical techniques from her homeland.

Greer allowed an acupuncturist to administer a treatment session, and then granted Clark's children permission to withdraw their father's feeding tube. Clark's wife did not appeal the decision.

Clark died within days of the tube's removal.

"He was sympathetic and empathetic to the fact that we had somebody who in her culture believed in these alternative methods," said Doug Williamson, who represented the Clark children.

William Mayhew, who represented Clark's wife Ping, said he too believes Greer simply followed the law.

"Many judges would have figured out a way to dump (the Schiavo) case," said Pinellas County Sheriff Everett Rice, Greer's friend for more than 20 years. "But he stuck by it. He deserves a medal for enduring that alone."

AP-ES-10-25-03 1720EDT

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[HiTech RedNeck]

But his Chinese-born wife - who disputed her husband was vegetative and believed he could hear her - wanted to try acupuncture and medical techniques from her homeland. Greer allowed an acupuncturist to administer a treatment session,

Not to advocate acupuncture, but did even the acupuncturist claim that a single session would be enough? This looks like a stinkin' token.

[FR_addict]

Thanks for the update on the case to dismiss Michael S. as guardian. Judge Greer is passing the buck by not hearing this case. It sounds like we need to Freep Judge Greer. I was hoping that Judge Greer finally saw the light and Michael would be removed.

[msmagoo]

I think it can be argued that Life is presumed to be preferable to Death - if someone is hit by a car in traffic, they are rushed to the hospital and all efforts are made to save their life. Their 'right to privacy' is not questioned, nor does anyone inquire whether they would prefer to die before proceeding with lifesaving treatment.

Felos would have us believe the 'right to die' is greater than anything else except the right to privacy but in practice, our society assumes people would rather be alive than dead. Schiavo, Greer and Felos have a hard time with that, but NORMAL people don't!

[HiTech RedNeck]

William Mayhew, who represented Clark's wife Ping, said he too believes Greer simply followed the law.

This law is evil!!!

[Old Professer]

One death is a tragedy, 100 is a statistic; correct?