[The Iguana]

It's time that her long-suffering parents and the grandstanding politicians let her go in peace.

I guess it's time to starve her to death.

[Calpernia]

Now someone help out a legal impaired mind here. Why is the article NOT subject to liability and damages to the Schindlers; but yet our activism is?

See: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/1007384/posts?page=667#667

To: Calpernia

The post I was making gets to both liability and damages - people spreading wild statements on the internet as fact without checking them out or having firsthand knowlege, followed by phone calls, emails and faxes (many of which were based on or even contained portions of those wild tales) to the governor and legislators of Florida, who used that information to act in a manner contrary to the legal rights and interests of Michael Schiavo. That doesn't even mention the effect of the bad info bandied about regarding Felos, Greer, experts, conspiracies, UFOs and the Devil's Triangle.

667 posted on 10/24/2003 5:24 PM EDT by Chancellor Palpatine

[Calpernia]

>>>"There has never been a documented case of someone recovering after having been in a persistent vegetative state for more than 3 months.

This statement alone by Cranford is libel.

[TaxRelief]

EUTHANASIA AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR HEALTH CARE RATIONING?

By Burke J. Balch, J.D., Director

NRLC Department of Medical Ethics

 

Considerable commentary has followed in the wake of the determination by Attorney General John Ashcroft that federally controlled drugs may not be used to assist suicide. Not yet in effect while under challenge in the courts, the determination would have its greatest impact in Oregon, the only state whose law currently authorizes physician-assisted suicide.

In an otherwise urbane, "on the one hand, on the other hand"-style article by George Mason University Law School Professor Nelson Lund criticizing Ashcroft,1 one chilling paragraph stands out:

"[E]ven a skeptic like me has to admit the very real possibility that Oregon's approach is not the worst imaginable," Lund wrote in the February edition of Commentary magazine. "If ... the political and economic pressures for health-care rationing become significantly more intense, we may see a much more widespread denial of medical care to very feeble patients, including the withholding of food and water."

Having set the reader up, Lund then adds, "If the alternative to a miserable death by dehydration turns out to be physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia, Oregon's approach may begin to look a lot less bad than it does today."

Lund's justification of assisted suicide is all the more jarring in the context of the rest of his article, which raises many important warning flags about assisting suicide. For instance, he deplores the fact that, "Whether it happens directly through law and regulation, or informally, very sick patients who are elderly or whose prospects for recovery are thought to be small are going to be prime targets for 'hastened death.' ... Once physician-assisted suicide is legalized, there will be strong temptations to pressure such patients to accelerate the inevitable ... especially effective with those who are clinically depressed."

Lund's scary prediction of pressure for assisted suicide as an " alternative" to starving and dehydrating people to death or as a " cost containment" measure is already well on its way to realization.

The most recent official annual report on Oregon's unique-in-the-nation law that has legalized physician-assisted suicide there found that 63% of those who killed themselves said they were motivated at least in part by fear of being a "burden."

In December 1997, Faye Girsh, executive director of the pro-euthanasia Hemlock Society USA, issued a statement endorsing killing individuals - - such as people with Alzheimer's disease and children with disabilities - - who are legally incapable of making the decision themselves.

"A judicial determination should be made," Girsh said, "when it is necessary to hasten the death of an individual whether it be a demented parent, a suffering, severely disabled spouse or a child." (Confronted with vigorous protests by disability rights activists, Girsh later tried to pull back, issuing a " clarification statement" calling this position simply "one suggestion about the question of ending suffering" not officially endorsed by the Hemlock Society.)

In December 1998, the founder of the Hemlock Society, Derek Humphry, wrote positively of the use of assisted suicide as "one measure of cost containment." "[T]he elderly," Humphry's book (ironically, entitled Freedom to Die) said, are "putting a strain on the health care system that will only increase and cannot be sustained."

Speaking of people with disabilities, he wrote, "People with chronic conditions account for a disproportionately large share of health care use, both services and supplies." In light of all this, he asked, "Is there a duty to die--a responsibility within the family unit - - that should remain voluntary but expected nevertheless?"

In the justly famous "Iron Curtain" speech in which Winston Churchill helped awaken the West to the danger of Soviet communist expansionism at the beginning of the Cold War, the former British Prime Minister referred to his unsuccessful efforts in the 1930s to warn a Britain enamored of appeasement of the rising danger of Hitler's Nazi regime. "Last time I saw it all coming and cried aloud to my own fellow-countrymen and to the world, but no one paid any attention. Up till the year 1933 or even 1935, Germany might have been saved from the awful fate which has overtaken her and we might all have been spared the miseries Hitler let loose upon mankind. There never was a war in all history easier to prevent than the one which has just desolated such great areas of the globe."

We have been warned of the consequences of legalizing euthanasia. We have been warned by the mouths of its foremost proponents; we have now been warned by the mouth of one of its reluctant facilitators. If we fail to act now to stop it before it spreads, then - - if in time to come we see our grandmothers, parents, and children, when "very feeble," taken away to be killed - - let us blame no one more than ourselves.

NOTE:

1. What Lund conceives to be the main point in his article is that Ashcroft's ruling is not in keeping with "federalism" because it renders more difficult something a state has chosen, as a matter of its own state law, to permit. In fact, of course, the issue is whether the federal government will endorse and facilitate assisting suicide by authorizing the use of federally controlled drugs to kill patients.

[I still care]

The best response to this article is this affidavit, filed by Terri's nurse. Note it refutes much of what this article states as "fact".

And while I have the greatest respect for doctors - I have met some extremely knowledgeable ones - on a day to day basis, it seems to me the nurse would be a better judge of her responsiveness than a 15 consult. (Come on, we've all had one of those!)

AFFIDAVIT _________


STATE OF FLORIDA ) COUNTY OF PINELLAS )

BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says:

1. My name is Carla Sauer Iyer. I am over the age of eighteen and make this statement of my own personal knowledge.

2. I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present. Prior to that I was a Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years.

3. I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in Largo, Florida from April 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo was a patient there.

4. It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment. My initial training there consisted solely of the instruction "Do what Michael Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated." This struck me as extremely odd.

-1- 5. I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance whatsoever was made for professional responsibility. The atmosphere throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo's intimidation. Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be close to Michael, was intimidated by him. Michael Schiavo always had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as "This is my order and you're going to follow it." He is very large and uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you, getting right in your face and practically shouting.

6. To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens while I was there. I became concerned because Michael wanted nothing done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing. Michael said again and again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a wash cloth in Terri's hand to keep her fingers from curling together, -2- and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy.

7. Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and misrepresented by Michael. When I worked with her, she was alert and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as "mommy," and "help me." "Help me" was, in fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds of times. Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in discomfort, but it came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n" sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper and scooted in bed on her bottom.

8. When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would always recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way toward me, saying "Haaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a "hi", which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound -3- being only a second or two long. When I told her humrous stories about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle, sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body, upper and lower. Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart. Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's, someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in her room with him. I documented Terri's rehab potential well, writing whole pages about Terri's responsiveness, but they would always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart. The reason I wrote so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act, and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that.

9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused -4- on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?," "Has she died yet?" and "When is that bitch gonna die?" These statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I recall him making include "Can't anything be done to accelerate her death - won't she ever die?" When she wouldn't die, Michael would be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be given information. He made numerous statements such as "Make sure the parents aren't contacted." I recorded Michael's statements word for word in Terri's chart, but these entries were also deleted after the end of my shift. Standing orders were that the family wasn't to be contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they should know about their daughter.

10. Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, or pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die.

He would say something like, -5- "Hallelujah! You've made my day!" He would call me, as I was the nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out "I'm going to be rich!" and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things.

11. When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats.

It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This happened about five times on my shift, as I recall. Normally Terri's blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding. It is medically possible that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting, but I don't have -6- any way of knowing for sure.

12. The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned I became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the reasons I've said, and other patients, too. There was an LPN named

Carolyn Adams, known as "Andy" Adams who was a particular concern. An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift, but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as "They are old - let them die." I couldn't believe her attitude or the fact that it didn't seem to attract any attention.

She made many comments about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die. She said it was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the time, too.) Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth more to him if she were dead. I ultimately called the police relative to this situation, and was terminated the next day. Other reasons were cited, but I was convinced it was because of my "rocking the boat."

13. Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated by Michael. In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would do whatever Michael told her. Michael sometimes called Adams at -7- night and spoke at length. I was not able to hear the content of these phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would tell me afterward and relay orders from him.

14. I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn't stand by and let Terri die without the truth being known.

[DaGman]

I'll be darned... someone posted some sanity on this issue. Do reason, logic and clinical descriptions mean anything anymore? Or is telling a family how they can conduct their private business the issue? I see no way whatsoever this "law" will be held constitutional if only because the judicial system's relevance as an institution has been seriously challenged. Will this country continue to have 3 branches or the mob rule of two?

[I still care]

By the way, I find one of the strangest things about this story that Michael is nurse, but when he found Terri, he not only didn't do CPR, he didn't call 911. He instead called her brother.

I find it so hard to understand why a trained nurse wouldn't start CPR or at least call 911 on finding his wife not breathing. And several work companions testified they told her not to go home that night, because she was fighting with her husband. I know it's a lot of innuendo but it just doesn't seem right.

[tessalu]

God breathed into the nostrils of Adam and he became a living soul! Yes, Terri is indeed a living soul. Genesis
2:7: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Why did Michael Schaivo just put a sack over Terri's head? It would have been so much kinder than trying to starve her to dead and let her die of thirst. "Thou shalt not kill is a commandment of God."
That means that we should not be killing any person, no matter what our reasoning may be. To kill a person by denial of water and starvation is no better than killing with a gun or putting a sack over Terri Schiavos head. Guardianship of Terri should be given to the parents of Terri immediately. Michael Schiavo has found himself another wife, but Terris parents can never again find a child of their own flesh and blood. The flesh and blood seems to be much thicker than water in this instance.

[Salvation]

**
Is Terri Schiavo Dead?

Eat, drink, and vegetate**

In ONE word: NO!

[jwalsh07]

The problem Ambrose is that the medical charts, her family and nurses that cared for her all indicate that she verbalises on cue. Still does now even after all those years without therapy.

If that is indeed the case then she isn't in a PVS and starving her to death is murder.

Judges today do not have the wisdom of Solomon. It should be clear to the casual observer that M Schiavos interests and T Schiavos interests are no longer coincident.

Would you agree that there is reasonable doubt as to Terri Schiavos wishes when her friends and blood relatives say one thing and MS and his blood relatives say another? It's a they said, they said. Absent physical evidence in a rape case should judges be deciding wether the Mr He Said or Ms She Said is telling the truth and convicting on that basis?

[Recovering_Democrat]

So is Terri Schiavo still alive? The odds are way against it. It's time that her long-suffering parents and the grandstanding politicians let her go in peace.

So is Terri Schiavo a piece of property? The Constitution says no. It's time that editorial writers and her philandering husband realize her mom and dad love her, and allow them to care for her without trying to starve or dehydrate her.

P.S. Amazing how the video is summarily dismissed by these people: the same ones who would use video evidence to "prove" the internal motives of police officers using force to subdue a suspect.

Liberals sicken me. Thus, I am, very happily, a
Recovering_Democrat.

[ClancyJ]

.....So is Terri Schiavo still alive?....

Hm....let me see, let me see. Is there a heartbeat? Yes, is she breathing on her own? Yes. Does she have emotions? Yes. Does she have bodily functions? Yes.

Guess she is alive. Not many dead people are seen doing the above.

[Bubba_Leroy]

Next will be the call to stop feeding children with Downs Syndrome. They are never going to get better. Why bother feeding them?

[Coral Snake]

Here, Kitty, Kitty, Kitty.

Sorry but smell ozone on this one. It is obviously being posted by a pro death troll to pull our chains.

[nickcarraway]

What scientific proof do we have that ``she lost her thinking abilities?'' There have been other articles recently, that call this idea into a lot of doubt?

Shouldn't we be sure that she ``can't think,'' instead of just assuming what we would like to believe? Many people, with the possible inclusion of Supreme Court justices, believed blacks ``couldn't think,'' to the same level as others. That was their conventional wisdom, that they beleived had every bit of legitimacy. Don't we owe it to ourselves to actually know the truth?

[epow]

So is Terri Schiavo still alive?

Of course she's alive, she breathes on her own and her heart beats regularly without external electrical stimulation. Her digestive system works and her blood circulates at the direction of her living brain. That doesn't happen when people are dead. It isn't too hard to tell if someone is dead or alive as long as you don't have a vested interest in their being dead.

Question, if Mrs. Schiavo has no concious knowledge of her condition or her suroundings as the pro-euthanasiacs claim, why do they want her dead? If she is not aware of anything and has no sensations in her body as they claim, IOW if she is just a vegetable, how can she be suffering or even mildly uncomfortable? Why are they so anxious to see her distressed parents and siblings grieving over her death as soon as possible? As long as life is in her body her family has some degree of hope to help assuage their grief. Maybe the money Mr. Schiavo stands to gain at her death explains why he apparently wants her dead, but what motivates those other people who have nothing to gain by her death?

Most Christians and Orthodox Jews believe only God has the right to say when a person dies, so that explains their desire to have her live until natural death overtakes her. But what drives non-believers to so passionately want her killed? The Judeo/Christian religions celebrate life as a gift from God, what kind of perverted religion or philosophy celebrates death?

[najida]

There have been several physicians who gave a press conference yesterday who believe that Terri can be rehabed. Remember, we DON'T know all there is to know about brain damage...

Not too long ago, locking people in a pit of snakes, sticking rods in their brains and scrambling them, 5 point restraints for days at a time were considered "good therapy'. Babies didn't need anthesthesia during surgery because they weren't supposed to feel pain. Many with Cerebal Palsy were deemed mentally deficient because they couldn't express themselves.

Me? Personally, in 10, 20, 50 years, if it comes to light that the severly brain damanged and those in PVS's have a higher level of consciousness, I want to be able to live with myself knowing I treated them well. I want to err on the side of hope and decency.

And there are those who believe Terri is in a PVS. Tell ya what I learned working with those in a PVS..... And I have spent most of my life in buildings with gobs of them. How they were treated reflected back on the souls of their caregivers. Seriously folks, it ain't about 'them' it is about "you". Those who used the excuse of "They are gone, it doesn't matter' were pretty much cold-hearted, arrogant creeps. And it shows in their actions and words. Those who made sure they got good care, stimulation, affection etc.....were those who "GOT" being a decent human being.

[fiesti]

Now go read the article on World Net Daily. At least somebody's getting it right

[Saundra Duffy]

The devil played a major role in writing the above article.

[GOP_Thug_Mom]

everyone posting on these threads needs to go to Terrisfight.org and read the affidavit of the nurse who took care of her back in '96-'97. VERY damning to Michael. Back then, Terri was communicating and saying a few words to her nurse. Michael demanded no rehad, thus the state she is in today. You can see pictures of her from that time, dressed up with makeup on, and see her today and how much she's deteriorated. He's totally responsible for the condition that she is in today.