Is Terri Schiavo Dead? Eat, drink, and vegetate

Reason ^ | 10-23-03 | Ronald Bailey

[ambrose]

October 23, 2003

Is Terri Schiavo Dead?

Eat, drink, and vegetate

Ronald Bailey

Terri Schiavo has been in a persistent vegetative state since 1990. Her husband wants to withdraw the nutrition and hydration her body has been receiving and allow her body to die. Her mother, father, and sister—and now Florida Governor Jeb Bush—want to continue supplying her body with food and water until... what? She wakes up? Dies of pneumonia?

What is a persistent vegetative state? According to the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke people in PVS "have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands." People suffering from PVS can generally be distinguished from afflicted but cognitively intact patients who suffer from "locked-in syndrome" by the fact that "locked in" patients can track visual stimuli and use eye blinks for communication.

According to most neurological experts, Terri Schiavo is definitely PVS—her eyes do not really track visual stimuli and she cannot communicate using eye blinks. However, Terri Schiavo's parents have posted several short ambiguous video clips online which are meant to show that Ms. Schiavo responds to stimuli. But what they show seems to fit an AMA's report of how PVS patients can respond to environmental cues without being aware. Specifically, the report notes, "Despite an 'alert demeanor', observation and examination repeatedly fail to demonstrate coherent speech, comprehension of the words of examiners or attendants, or any capacity to initiate or make consistently purposeful movements. Movements are largely confined to reflex withdrawals or posturing in response to noxious or other external stimuli. Since neither visual nor auditory signals require cortical integrity to stimulate brief orienting reflexes, some vegetative patients may turn the head or dart the eyes toward a noise or moving objects. However, PVS patients neither fixate upon nor consistently follow moving objects with the eyes, nor do they show other than startle responses to loud stimuli. They blink when air movements stimulate the cornea but not in the presence of visual threats per se."

Ms. Schiavo has been in this state for 13 years. What are her chances of recovering at least some awareness? Minnesota neurologist Ronald Cranford told the Washington Post, "There has never been a documented case of someone recovering after having been in a persistent vegetative state for more than 3 months. However, the journal Brain Injury reported the case, of a 26-year-old woman who, after being diagnosed as suffering from a persistent vegetative state for six months, recovered consciousness and, though severely disabled, is largely cognitively intact. However, it is generally agreed that if a patient doesn't become responsive before six months, his or her prognosis is extremely poor. A report on PVS by the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council finds that "patients in a state of post-coma unresponsiveness may emerge from it to become responsive," that "the probability of emergence becomes progressively less over time," and that "there is general agreement that emergence is less likely in older people, and in the victims of hypoxic brain damage." Terri Schiavo is the way she is because oxygen was cut off to her brain for 14 minutes; in other words, she suffered severe hypoxic brain damage.

So is Terri Schiavo still alive? The odds are way against it. It's time that her long-suffering parents and the grandstanding politicians let her go in peace.

[Gringo1]

"Terri's own mother is CHOOSING life for her daughter"

She doesn't have the legal right, her husband does.

"The parents of this woman want their "end table" (there's a thoughtful, compassionate description of a human being)"

Y'all had a cow when I used Veg...so you reap what you sow(that is biblical ya know).

"husband"

He is still her legal husband. Just because you don't happen to like him, does not lessen that fact one iota.

"The fact that she is given nutrition is not extraordinary, there are people who are ambulatory and alert that receive food and water in this manner.'

She isn't one of them, she isn't ambulatory.The continued attempts to link Terri Schiavo with quadrapaligics is a disingenuous one at the least.

"I see a woman who may not be living in the way most of us would choose, but a woman who loves the family around her, and loves (and clings) to life."

According to YOU.This isn't a matter for YOU to decide.

"Just because you have your own experiences, beliefs, wishes, etc. does not mean that you should foist them upon another living soul. Her "husband" says she "told" him her preference. Her closest friends (thats PLURAL) say she was adamant that "where there was life there is hope...." That was HER "catch-phrase" in regard to Karen Anne Quinlan."

Don't foist yours on me, her husband and the rest of the world, and I'll buy that.

I think it was her "friend" not "closest friends". I read that post too. And her "closest friends" are not her legal guardians in this case, so the point is moot.

"It is incomprehensible to me that so many posters on this board are willing to endorse and support the execution of Terri without ever once insisting that the judge at least try every option available to see if she can eat on her own"

She isn't being executed, that is the "catch phrase"(as you like to use the term) of the god squad who like to make Nazi remarks and call the hospice Auschwitz all to demonize people and institutions because they cannot win in a court.
And speaking of court, the Schindlers had every opportunity to prove these things in court and did a piss-poor job of it. Even the court appointed doctors said she would never recover.

"No wonder you can't marvel at the miracle which is life."

I love life, got a family of my own, but terri Schiavo died 13 years ago, and only man is keeping her body functioning.

"Instead of an end table, if you will at least put Terri on the level of a dehydrating mammal who needs assistance, maybe you can get the point."

Naw, she is certainly above the level of a common animal, but she is dead just the same and has been for 13 years.


That was a nice series of paragraphs, too bad you really didn't say much of anything but the same stuff....all emotion, but no legal facts.

It is no wonder why the Republican party will never truly be the power that it could be. You have republicans like me who like to look at the issues one at a time and make their own decisions about how we feel on them, and then there is the side you fall on that thinks everyone has to play off of one "master list" of issues and positions without dissent, and who doesn't agree on everything that has to do with religious topics must be "imposters" or "uncle toms" or "trolls".
Surely you guys are the least tolerant bunch of people I've ever seen, and you are calling yourselves christians.

[RGSpincich]

Are you stating that Dr. Webber CAN examine Terri?

Click your heels together three times and Click Here

[Gringo1]

Could you repeat that in english?...or we can speak in spanish if that would be easier.

[Gringo1]

"The interesting god squad them is "God will take her when it is time." My suggestion is to let the god squad walk the walk, remove the tubes, and see what god does....betcha I know......"

I agree. If god wants her to live, pull the feeding tube and leave it to him.

That would ruin their argument tho.

[Gringo1]

"Actually, we can know HIS mind. Read the book you know the bible, He wrote it through men who were knowing HIS mind."

Actually it was written through apostles, who walked with him, not by some kook in Nebraska.

[TaxRelief]

I read the same article and I see it so differently than you do:

Hammesfahr said he and his colleagues were drawn to the facility because of the location and the peaceful setting. The facility is on Riverside Drive, near the Anclote River and the Gulf of Mexico.

"It's got a nice, serene atmosphere to it," he said.

The facility, on 22 acres, is owned by Health Care Property Investors Inc. of California. Hammesfahr said his offer to buy the property has been accepted, but the deal is not final yet. He would not say how much he offered to pay.

[excerpted]

The city's Technical Review Committee reviewed the application last week and had no problem with the hospital or the two therapy horses. Committee members were concerned about the noise from the heliport.

[excerpted]

Hammesfahr has developed a controversial treatment for stroke victims which, he said in a 1999 Times story, restores blood flow to damaged areas of the brain and gives stroke victims movement and strength they thought they had lost.

Some patients said Hammesfahr's mixture of heart and blood pressure drugs worked wonders. But other doctors said nobody could tell whether his treatment works because he has not subjected his theory to controlled, scientific studies. He was mentioned on Quackwatch, a Web site focusing on fraud and quackery in medicine, and his articles were turned down by well-known medical journals.

He said he plans to use that and other procedures to help patients at the new facility. Hammesfahr also would continue his practice in Clearwater.

You are obsessed with the reports and opinions of liberal institutions. I basically dismiss anything from such boldly tainted sources.

[Gringo1]

"The appeals court gave Dr Webber the chance to examine Terri, to conduct any tests on Terri, and videotape his examination of Terri.

All expenses paid, per order of the appeals court.

Dr. Webber abandoned the Schindlers, why?"

This fact has been conveniently ignored...the light from it is too bright for rose-colored-glasses.

[Calpernia]

>>>The appeals court gave Dr Webber the chance to examine Terri, to conduct any tests on Terri, and videotape his examination of Terri

You want to stand by this statement?

[Legerdemain]

And I wonder if King James had had some of the Dead Sea Scrolls and other writings at the time would he have included included these in his bible (biblio, collection of books). This very possibly would have shed a diffrent light on "christianity".

Jesuse, the greatest illusionist in the world

[Calpernia]

I asked you, "Are you stating that Dr. Webber CAN examine Terri?"

Yes or no.

[Calpernia]

Are you too making the statement, "Dr. Webber CAN examine Terri?"

[TaxRelief]

The problem with your argument, that we should see what happens if the tubes are removed, ignores three basic facts: 1. She is being held prisoner in her room in the hospice.
2. She has had no chance to relearn to eat.
3. No one is allowed to provide her with regular food or drink, either.

[Semper]

We know that God does not want Terri dead yet. If He did, she'd be dead.

With that reasoning, God must want the victims of murder to die (because if God did not want them dead, they would not be).

But whatever, the evidence is that Terri is already dead in mind; there are just some who want to keep her body around as long as possible.

[Gringo1]

"Jesuse, the greatest illusionist in the world"

I won't go that far, but those that think that they know the mind if God are nuts in my book.

Jesus was the son of god, he had disciples, the books of the bible are named after them, and a few others of note(Job, etc) and is open to interpretation and has been for thousands of years, but to say YOU know what the mind of god is, and that YOU know what God wants is a sin.


Man proposes, God disposes.

[Legerdemain]

The problem with your argument, that we should see what happens if the tubes are removed, ignores three basic facts: 1. She is being held prisoner in her room in the hospice. 2. She has had no chance to relearn to eat. 3. No one is allowed to provide her with regular food or drink, either.

doubtful, we do not have the full 13 year medical record, but I imagine that at one time, or several times, the facility has tried to see if she would eat on her own....just my guess, but again, betcha I am right

[Gringo1]

"She is being held prisoner in her room in the hospice."

No she isn't. As her legal guardian, her husband can control who can see her and who doesn't, and he understandably doesn't want every yahoo with a "miracle cure" in her room or the god squad U.N. "monitors" tromping around either.It is his decision, not yours.

You guys would have her put on public display?

[First_Salute]

Over at Continuation for Request of Intervention on behalf of Terri Schiavo, posted to FR on Oct. 27, 2003, at 4:57 P.M. EST ---

Criminal Investigation of Michael Schiavo

1) Nurses' testimony: Heidi Law, Carla Sauer-Iyer, Carolyn Johnson have been ignored and dismissed without hearing; each testified that Michael was abusive to Terri and may have attempted to kill her by insulin injection and attempts to induce pneumonia by turning the thermostat in her room to 64 degrees.

2) Michael Baden, top forensic pathologist in country and interviewed on Fox News National Television broadcast October 25, 2003 on Terri's bone scan and injuries states that:

a) Terri's injuries are not consistent with a heart attack; no cardiac evidence to support it
b) Extremely rare for potassium imbalance on woman her age and in her good health
c) Injuries are consistent with severe trauma possibly caused by a beating
d) The injuries in medical records warrant an immediate investigation

3) Dr. William Hammesfahr, Nobel prize nominee and neurologist testified that Terri's neck injuries are consistent with only one type of injury: that of strangulation.

4) Terri's doctor, Dr. Gambone resigned; he had previously testified Terri would die within a few days of starvation/dehydration. Terri has an obvious will to live.

5) Michael has enlisted the services of a new doctor, Stanton Tripodis, who has 5 malpractice suits against him. Clearly, Michael is attempting to provide sub-standard care for his wife.

Case no. 97007946C1 filed 11-25-97
Case no. 94003739C1 filed 6-27-94
Case no. 95000873C1 filed 2-14-95
Case no. 96001434C1 filed 3-6-96
Case no. 98002289C1 filed 4-7-98

6) Michael is committing adultery by living with another woman who has already born one child with another on the way, thereby creating an obvious conflict of interest as guardian.

7) Michael has committed both perjury (2 counts) and insurance fraud by promising to provide care and therapy for his wife in exchange for the court award of 1.2 million dollars in 1993. No care has ever been provided to Terri.

8) Michael Schiavo has also prevented Terri from undergoing a barium swallow test, a procedure necessary to ascertain the consistency of foods able to be taken by mouth.

And at New Terri Schiavo update [and] request for information --- posted to Free Republic by cpforlife.org, Oct. 26, 2003 ---

RGSpincich's Reply 59, calls into question, the following, as posted by cpforlife.org:

1. Dr. Hammesfahr, of HAMMESFAHR NEUROLOGICAL INSTITUTE. http://www.hni-online.com/ emphatically stated that the neck spinal injury this patient incurred was by Strangulation. Schiavo's attorney avoided challenging Dr. Hammesfahr's strangulation statement. Proof of those statements below - video of the Dr saying it, along with saying that with therapy, her condition can improve. http://www.floridaneurologicalinstitute.com/schiavo_channel10_may7,8,2001.htm Debi, there are 5 video and audio clips. They total more than 20 MB's so they wouldn't be practical to email. All are available at the address above.

I listened to and watched all the audio and video at that Channel 10 News link. There is no information about Dr. Hammesfahr stating anything about "Strangulation."

HOWEVER ---

In the second Channel 10 News clip, video for May 8, 2001 ---

Channel 10 5:00 PM Clip Part 2 - Dr. Hammesfahr coverage on Terri Schiavo case

--- the Channel 10 news anchor states:

An ex-girlfriend of Michael Schiavo, is set to give a court deposition this week; Cindy Shook has said Michael once told her that he didn't know what his wife's wishes really were.

Cindy Shook, in that news anchor's report, is Cindy Brashers Shook, who is the court witness for May 8, 2001 in the chronology of events that are listed in iowamomfor freedom's Reply 48, at cpforlife.org's page, which is also a restatement of My Favorite Headache's Reply 18 at another FR page.

Unfortunately, in that chronology, Cindy's information is not given, other than she was a witness on May 8, 2001; but the Channel 10 news anchor has provided a glimpse, here.

 

[TaxRelief]

Have you even bothered to read any of the info concerning this specific case? No one is trying to take away your right to die, except Michael Schiavo and George Felos. They are manipulating your emotions over this issue to cover up their exploitation of an innocent woman.

The more that you people defend these crooks, the more you diminish your legitimacy concerning the "right to die". We might start thinking you are all out to personally profit from removing artificial life sustanance.

Please do mankind a favor and get more info before you continue to defend these shysters. Thanks

[george wythe]

According to the Florida Department of Health, Dr. Hammesfahr was accused of three different violations:
(t)
(d)
(n)

He was found not guilty of two charges:
(t)
(d)

Nevertheless, he was found guilty one charge, fined, ordered to do community service, and assessed court costs.

The penalties were assessed for violation of (n)

The Administrative Complaints alleged violation of Florida Statute 458.331(1)(t) the failure to practice medicine with that level of care, skill, and treatment which is recognized by a reasonably prudent similar physician as being acceptable under similar conditions and circumstances (d) false, deceptive, or misleading advertising. and (n) exercising influence on the patient or client in such a manner as to exploit the patient or client for financial gain of the licensee or of a third party, which shall include, but not be limited to, the promoting or selling of services, goods, appliances, or drugs.

The Administrative Law Judge did not find respondent in violation of 458.331(1)(t) and (d), Florida Statutes.

Penalty Imposed: $2,000 fine, Six months probation, quarterly reports, indirect

supervision, monthly review, 50% chart review, 100 hours of community service, ethics

Cost Assessed: $52,084.40

[TaxRelief]

Ditto.