Is Terri Schiavo Dead? Eat, drink, and vegetate

Reason ^ | 10-23-03 | Ronald Bailey

[ambrose]

October 23, 2003

Is Terri Schiavo Dead?

Eat, drink, and vegetate

Ronald Bailey

Terri Schiavo has been in a persistent vegetative state since 1990. Her husband wants to withdraw the nutrition and hydration her body has been receiving and allow her body to die. Her mother, father, and sister—and now Florida Governor Jeb Bush—want to continue supplying her body with food and water until... what? She wakes up? Dies of pneumonia?

What is a persistent vegetative state? According to the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke people in PVS "have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands." People suffering from PVS can generally be distinguished from afflicted but cognitively intact patients who suffer from "locked-in syndrome" by the fact that "locked in" patients can track visual stimuli and use eye blinks for communication.

According to most neurological experts, Terri Schiavo is definitely PVS—her eyes do not really track visual stimuli and she cannot communicate using eye blinks. However, Terri Schiavo's parents have posted several short ambiguous video clips online which are meant to show that Ms. Schiavo responds to stimuli. But what they show seems to fit an AMA's report of how PVS patients can respond to environmental cues without being aware. Specifically, the report notes, "Despite an 'alert demeanor', observation and examination repeatedly fail to demonstrate coherent speech, comprehension of the words of examiners or attendants, or any capacity to initiate or make consistently purposeful movements. Movements are largely confined to reflex withdrawals or posturing in response to noxious or other external stimuli. Since neither visual nor auditory signals require cortical integrity to stimulate brief orienting reflexes, some vegetative patients may turn the head or dart the eyes toward a noise or moving objects. However, PVS patients neither fixate upon nor consistently follow moving objects with the eyes, nor do they show other than startle responses to loud stimuli. They blink when air movements stimulate the cornea but not in the presence of visual threats per se."

Ms. Schiavo has been in this state for 13 years. What are her chances of recovering at least some awareness? Minnesota neurologist Ronald Cranford told the Washington Post, "There has never been a documented case of someone recovering after having been in a persistent vegetative state for more than 3 months. However, the journal Brain Injury reported the case, of a 26-year-old woman who, after being diagnosed as suffering from a persistent vegetative state for six months, recovered consciousness and, though severely disabled, is largely cognitively intact. However, it is generally agreed that if a patient doesn't become responsive before six months, his or her prognosis is extremely poor. A report on PVS by the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council finds that "patients in a state of post-coma unresponsiveness may emerge from it to become responsive," that "the probability of emergence becomes progressively less over time," and that "there is general agreement that emergence is less likely in older people, and in the victims of hypoxic brain damage." Terri Schiavo is the way she is because oxygen was cut off to her brain for 14 minutes; in other words, she suffered severe hypoxic brain damage.

So is Terri Schiavo still alive? The odds are way against it. It's time that her long-suffering parents and the grandstanding politicians let her go in peace.

[Legerdemain]

in my last post, I should have stated my brother confirmed the 3 month reasoning in the article.

[Armed Civilian]

I still ask the question why Michael doesn't just divorce her and go on with his perverted life as he already has. Girlfriend, baby, and baby on the way. Just let her parents take care of her, why does he care? Why does he want her dead?

[george wythe]

The Department of Health of Florida reports that the Schindler's neurologist has his license in probation.

The Department of Health of Florida website reports that the Schindler's neurologist has two fines in his record, one for $2,000 and another for $52,084.40

Therefore, the claims in Quack Watch have been taken seriously by other doctors beyond Quack Watch.

Furthermore, Harvard's neurologists' bulletin board reports about the Schindler's neurologist:

If you do a medline search using his name, you will find that NO reliable medical journal has published his work.

What this means is that, if he had evidence that he felt WOULD be scientifically proveable, and submitted that evidence, upon review by his peers it was found to be not valid.

Most of us are helped to a degree by increased blood flow, which is why exercise is generally recommended, but I believe dialating the vessels to accomplish that could be deadly to certain individuals.

The St Petersburg's Times confirms the above:

Some patients said Hammesfahr's mixture of heart and blood pressure drugs worked wonders. But other doctors said nobody could tell whether his treatment works because he has not subjected his theory to controlled, scientific studies. He was mentioned on Quackwatch, a Web site focusing on fraud and quackery in medicine, and his articles were turned down by well-known medical journals.

Is this controversial doctor the only neurologist that the Schindlers could find to support their case?

A reject by all the reputable medical journals and in probation by the State of Florida?

[MEGoody]

"So, let this woman pass away in peace and stop the nsanity."

If it is about being merciful and ending her life in peace, give her an overdose of morphine. Don't starve her to death!

[Gringo1]

How are things at Ruby Ridge these days?

[george wythe]

An ethical doctor cannot testify on behalf of a patient unless he can examine her.

And the appeals court gave him the chance, and Dr Webber did not show up.

Instead, the Schindlers had to scramble to present a radiologist and a neurologist on probation.

Not very nice of Dr Webber to abandon the Schindlers when they needed him the most. Unless, of course, Dr. Webber changed his mind.

[Armed Civilian]

Read post #442

[snickeroon]

Okay. A different tact. Over and over those who believe in abortion keep citing it is a "woman's right to choose...." So, I'll make this really simple.

Terri's own mother is CHOOSING life for her daughter. Oh, and her father agrees, and they both want the chance to try therapy, to really have a chance to SEE if their daughter can make progress. Only time will tell, and as long as she has nourishment, she may have that time.

This has been denied for 13 years.

When her "husband" decided it was a loving act to "let her go".... he displayed his true feelings...yet again... How? He denied her the loving act of allowing her the last rites of her church. He would not allow the morsel of a wet wafer to pass her lips. He then said she will be immediately cremated....this is also frowned upon by her church and most assuredly would be against her wishes. Such "loving" acts.

The only contradiction which exists is you accusing the "god squad to explain how it is good she remains an end table, but bad that she be allowed to die." Why?

Because God's will is NOT a contradiction. The parents of this woman want their "end table" (there's a thoughtful, compassionate description of a human being) to have the benefit of an opportunity to make progress...even after 13 years. They want her to receive nourishment and water.... Jesus teaches us that when we give one who thirsts a drink, we are doing this for Him.

As for it being bad that she "be allowed to die". It is YOU who has a contradiction. We ALL die. God will take her when He's ready....It is not up to her "husband," his lawyer or even you. It is her right to receive nourishment and loving, COMPETENT care until she is actually in need of extraordinary measures, such as a ventilator because she can't breathe on her own. The fact that she is given nutrition is not extraordinary, there are people who are ambulatory and alert that receive food and water in this manner.

YOU offer no evidence that she IS suffering. I see a woman who may not be living in the way most of us would choose, but a woman who loves the family around her, and loves (and clings) to life. If she was suffering, she would let go.

It is incomprehensible to me that so many posters on this board are willing to endorse and support the execution of Terri without ever once insisting that the judge at least try every option available to see if she can eat on her own, or make progress with methods that have progressed thirteen years since this incident took place. By the way, if Dr. Michael Baden says a potassium imbalance is so rare as to be out of the question, I defer to his expertise.

Just because you have your own experiences, beliefs, wishes, etc. does not mean that you should foist them upon another living soul. Her "husband" says she "told" him her preference. Her closest friends (thats PLURAL) say she was adamant that "where there was life there is hope...." That was HER "catch-phrase" in regard to Karen Anne Quinlan.

If you are in a group that will "save the whales" (no matter how hard they have tried to commit suicide by beaching themselves), wants to do away with the death sentence (cruel and inhuman punishment for a person who has taken the life of a child or an adult in grisly, tortuous fashion), AND believes that it is the "woman's right to choose," even if an innocent, viable, beautiful baby must be sacrificed, then YOU are the ones with the constant contradictions. No wonder you can't marvel at the miracle which is life.

Instead of an end table, if you will at least put Terri on the level of a dehydrating mammal who needs assistance, maybe you can get the point.

[najida]

There was a time when no one doubted that the world was flat.

There was a time when bleeding someone was considered good medical practice.

There was a time that it was considered OK to whip a slave...because they were believed to be different, not quite human and didn't feel pain.

And lets not forget lobotomies, basic brain scrambling, but considered to be the cutting edge treatment for mental patients at the time.

Or how anyone with a severe physical disability where considered mentally deficient, just because they couldn't express themselves.

So, with our past histories behind us, we know ALL there is to know about brain function and disabilities. We know exactly what is going on inside Terri and folks like here.</heavy snark >

In 10, 20, 50 years, when we learn more about those with brain injuries, I want to be able to live with myself. And not find out that I was like some of the folks listed above.
I want to err on the side of decency and life.

[RGSpincich]

Now that is really interesting.

It's not a mystery, it's an appendix. Meaning it is part of the previous trial record. As in, the part that is being appealed. Schindlers won the appeal. Webber then had the opportunity to proceed but declined to do so, for whatever reason.

It wasn't the money that chased him off. The court also ruled that the five doctors would be paid from Terri's trust fund.

[Gringo1]

Did he send you a memo to that effect?

Running around thinking you know the mind of God is a sin.....albeit one that you seem to not mind a whole lot.

[Calpernia]

>>>If you do a medline search using his name, you will find that NO reliable medical journal has published his work.

Show me again, when or where does a physician have to be published?

And yes, I saw this link: http://ww2.doh.state.fl.us/irm00praes/PRASINDI.ASP?IDNUM=48028

He is one PROBATION as of 10/27/2003

[Legerdemain]

As for me, my right to die, is MY right and does not belong to the state, the church or the courts. *IF* I'm unable to communicate my wishes, my spouse is the person that speaks for me. A pox on those who would turn my death into a circus for their own cause. A pox on those who would attack my spouse for attempting to carry out MY wishes. A pox on the legislature and the courts that would require extensive forms and documentation for an event (death) that is as natural as birth. I claim and retain MY right to "death with dignity

Amen

[Armed Civilian]

How are things at Ruby Ridge these days?

That's your best? Maybe you are are in a PVE, funny hahaha rotflmao. Why did you change you tag line, statue. Why not just answer my question in #442? By the way, would you have pulled the trigger on randy's wife?

[Calpernia]

>>>And the appeals court gave him the chance, and Dr Webber did not show up.

So Dr. Webber CAN examine Terri?

[Calpernia]

Are you stating that Dr. Webber CAN examine Terri?

[Armed Civilian]

Actually, we can know HIS mind. Read the book you know the bible, He wrote it through men who were knowing HIS mind.

[Armed Civilian]

What you left? I see, you are surfing keystroker.

[Legerdemain]

So your argumentis that the world should do what the god squad says because she didn't write anything down, you do not like her husband, and god is in charge.

Gringol, I agree with you..however, The interesting god squad them is "God will take her when it is time." My suggestion is to let the god squad walk the walk, remove the tubes, and see what god does....betcha I know......but, supossedly god made Adam from dirt, so maybe he will keep her alive.

And on that thought, if god kept her alive, he is not a benevolent god if he does not "heal" her..........

[george wythe]

The appeals court gave Dr Webber the chance to examine Terri, to conduct any tests on Terri, and videotape his examination of Terri.

All expenses paid, per order of the appeals court.

Dr. Webber abandoned the Schindlers, why?