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Dean's dream-destroying plan. (Calculate Your Howard Dean Pay Cut.)
The Washington Times ^ | 23 Oct 03 | Not Provided

Posted on 10/23/2003 6:26:22 AM PDT by .cnI redruM

Edited on 07/12/2004 4:09:40 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

In a recent speech at Georgetown University, Howard Dean unveiled his economic plan, calling it "Reclaiming the American Dream." Since its centerpiece is a complete repeal of the Bush tax cuts, the plan amounts to a gigantic tax increase. And let there be no mistake: Mr. Dean's claims to the contrary, "Reclaiming the American Dream" will result in a huge tax increase on child-rearing working families. How ironic it is that one of Mr. Dean's "clear objectives" is to "[r]elieve the crushing burdens on American families." Contrary to the details of his schemes, he also claims his program "will strive for greater tax fairness for middle-class working families."


(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: hoawarddean; socialist; taxer; taxreform
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To: .cnI redruM
Sent these numbers to Dean's campaign, asking politely for an explanation.

Still haven't heard anything back.

Can't wait for CBSNBCCNNABC, Time or Newsweak to run these facts! (/sarcasm)
21 posted on 10/23/2003 8:55:18 AM PDT by ItsOurTimeNow ("Forth now, and fear no darkness!")
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To: 6ppc
That puts all of the new job holders in the Chelsea range, making them the latest "Winners of Lifes Lottery".
22 posted on 10/23/2003 9:03:55 AM PDT by OrioleFan
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To: GO65
Are you offsetting the effect of rising long-term interest rates due to a growing Federal deficit in your calculations?

You show me the calculation you have in mind, and we'll talk.

But your questions assumes that lower taxes will lead inevitably to higher deficits and higher taxes will lead inevitably to lower deficits. It ignores the economic effects of lower taxation.

To take an extreme example, you have Country A that has a tax rate of 10% and Country B that has a tax rate of 90%. If you ignore the economic effect of taxation, you would expect the country with a higher tax rate to have nine times greater government income. But, all other things being equal, you would have much, much more economic activity in the low tax country, and as a result, overall government income would probably be higher with lower taxes.

There will be some relationship between tax rates and government income, but to assume it is linear is just silly, as evidenced by the extreme example above.

There is an optimal point of taxation that maximizes governmental income without retarding economic activity. But to assume that Congress happened upon that point by accident back in 1996 does not make any sense at all. Bush cut taxes from those levels, but there was nothing optimal about those levels. Add to that the competing societal values of self reliance versus shared responsibility, and optimizing the tax rate is impossible, because people can not agree on what is optimal.

In addition, deficits are a function of taxing and spending, a fact that Liberals everywhere love to ignore. If we had President Howard Dean, sure we would have higher taxes and more tax revenue on the short term, but we would also have a cornocopia of spending increases for health care, make-work, and who-knows-what, that might far overshadow any increase in revenue from increased taxes.

So who's to say that long-term interest rates would be lower under President Dean? The more I listen to Dean, the more I think his deficits would make Bush's look puny by comparison.

23 posted on 10/23/2003 9:07:13 AM PDT by gridlock (The Yankees will crush the Marlins. Sorry, that's just what the Yankees do!)
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To: Fierce Allegiance
Oh, OK. In my experience, Rahway is a kind of nice little town. Not affluent by standards of the surrounding communities, but hardly infamous for crack whores and the like. I like Rahway because it is a striving town, where people really are trying to make it better.
24 posted on 10/23/2003 9:10:57 AM PDT by gridlock (The Yankees will crush the Marlins. Sorry, that's just what the Yankees do!)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks
Give me $1 Million dollars and I guarantee I'll create no less than 5 jobs within a year, no problem at all, and use the money I don't spend on salaries to grow my business so I'll need easily 3-5 more year 2... etc.. etc...

1 Million per job? Be serious Mr. Dean. Give me that 1 Billion and I guarantee I'll create far more jobs than your efforts ever will.
25 posted on 10/23/2003 9:19:14 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: .cnI redruM
And Dean is touted as a fiscal conservative? Only in the eyes of the media and democrat party.

Yikes, this guy is dangerous.
26 posted on 10/23/2003 9:38:59 AM PDT by onyx
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To: onyx
You got it. He's Stalin eating a granola bar.
27 posted on 10/23/2003 9:47:54 AM PDT by .cnI redruM (The September 11th attacks were clearly Clinton's most consequential legacy. - Rich Lowry)
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To: Keyes2000mt
Send this info (and your suggestion) to Richard Gephardt's campaign website. He's got a hit site up that takes Dean down on several issues and would love to build that calculator for you.
28 posted on 10/23/2003 9:49:12 AM PDT by .cnI redruM (The September 11th attacks were clearly Clinton's most consequential legacy. - Rich Lowry)
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To: 6ppc
If my large intestine were that inefficient my eyes would turn from blue to brown.
29 posted on 10/23/2003 9:50:15 AM PDT by .cnI redruM (The September 11th attacks were clearly Clinton's most consequential legacy. - Rich Lowry)
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To: 6ppc
I have an idea for a small busineses that would employ 8 people.

Send me my $800,000, Howie.
30 posted on 10/23/2003 9:58:31 AM PDT by macrahanish #1
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To: Eric in the Ozarks
cause we do it now on a regular basis.....
31 posted on 10/23/2003 9:58:49 AM PDT by Blue Scourge (There are alot of loosers in this world...and alot of Liberals; coincidence....I think not.)
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To: .cnI redruM
THat's where the ad hominem generally begins.

That's also where the discussion is over and you have won. If a person cannot draw a dozen ad hominens a day in his various social groups, he is either ineffective in argument or is not participating fully.

32 posted on 10/23/2003 9:58:53 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Law of the Excluded Middle)
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To: RightWhale
I haven't hit one yet today. I'm just not worthy....
33 posted on 10/23/2003 10:01:22 AM PDT by .cnI redruM (The September 11th attacks were clearly Clinton's most consequential legacy. - Rich Lowry)
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To: .cnI redruM
I haven't hit one yet today.

An obvious case of drifting into complacency. Lazy brain lack of insight. Typical Liberal.

How's that? Aad hominem enough?

34 posted on 10/23/2003 10:23:29 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Law of the Excluded Middle)
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To: gridlock
You show me the calculation you have in mind, and we'll talk.

I'd argue that such a calculation is impossible, and that it doesn't really do very much to further discussion by examining one slice of a very complex pie.

If tax cuts lead to higher deficits, which increase the cost of borrowing, then money gained via a tax cut may be lost via other means, such as higher interest rates. Conversley, if tax increases lead to lower deficits, the opposite may be true.

My point is simply that looking at a very narrow example really doesn't give you a clear picture of the true impact of tax policy.

35 posted on 10/23/2003 12:32:03 PM PDT by GO65
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To: PaForBush
When half of the population pays little or no taxes but still has voting clout we're headed for a disaster.

We've been heading in that direction for a long time. Now we're in a situation, thanks to the EITC, where low income folks actually get paid by the federal government instead of paying taxes.

IMHO, the only real solution to the tax mess is a scrapping of all income-based taxation, both individual and corporate, and replacing the current system with a national sales tax, payable by all, with exemptions for food, housing, medical, and education.

36 posted on 10/23/2003 12:34:35 PM PDT by GO65
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To: gridlock
But your questions assumes that lower taxes will lead inevitably to higher deficits and higher taxes will lead inevitably to lower deficits. It ignores the economic effects of lower taxation.

I don't argue that there is a one-to-one relationship, and I agree that lower taxes will have a stimulative effect. However, if lower taxes always led to increased revenues, the corollary is that cutting income taxes down to say, 1%, would give the federal government a huge spike in revenue. Do you believe that to be true?

What I would suggest though is that in the current political climate, there is no incentive to cut spending, so the end result of tax cuts is increased deficits, as we are currently seeing. It is unfortunate that we are in this situation when there is so much potential for massive spending cuts.

37 posted on 10/23/2003 12:37:49 PM PDT by GO65
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To: GO65
How about reducing spending to match revenues? Lower taxes = more activity, lower expenses lead to a surplus.
38 posted on 10/23/2003 12:49:56 PM PDT by BillM
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To: Verginius Rufus
Right...if you were to create 1 million new government jobs at $50,000 each, that would cost only half as much as Dean's proposal.



His program is two years, so he's in at $50,000/job/year. Of course that's the "loaded" cost. To pay someone about $25,000/year, you need to spend $50,000 on social security, fringes and overhead.

He's probably figgering a "multiplier effect", I pay 250,000 people $50,000 to dig holes and another 250,000 $50,000 to fill them in. when they spend their paychecks it will create another 500,000 jobs. Sure. Of course, if the $100,000,000,0000 had been left in the economy all the "multiplier effects" would have resulted and more. Everytime the government "creates" one leaf raking job it kill two productive jobs.
39 posted on 10/23/2003 12:55:34 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Uday and Qusay and Idi-ay are ead-day)
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To: GO65
However, if lower taxes always led to increased revenues, the corollary is that cutting income taxes down to say, 1%, would give the federal government a huge spike in revenue. Do you believe that to be true?

Of course not. There is a point between 1% and 99% that will maximize government revenue. At the low end, lowering the rate of taxation is not made up for by the increase in economic activity. For instance, cutting the tax rate from 2% to 1% would halve government revenue, but would have a negligible effect on the economy, since taxes are no longer a significant cost at 2%.

It's a curved function with a peak. To suppose that peak just happens to fall at the point of the 1996 tax package is to engage in "magical thinking".

And then you have the political question of the role of government in society, and whether or not maximizing government tax revenue is a good thing. For example, from a human freedom point of view, starving the government is always a good idea. The fewer resources they have, the less trouble they can cause.

If I had to guess, I would say we are on a reletively shallowly sloped portion of the revenue/tax rate curve, and that decreased taxes will be largely recovered through economic acceleration. They may not be fully recovered, but that is not necessarily a problem. Having smaller government and more money left with the earner is a desirable thing, IMHO.

Unfortunately for us all, the spending discipline in Washington, at all levels, leaves a lot to be desired.

40 posted on 10/23/2003 1:16:52 PM PDT by gridlock (The Yankees will crush the Marlins. Sorry, that's just what the Yankees do!)
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