UFO still puzzles 30 years later (Coyne Incident)

I think your assumptions in such matters are more . . .

out on a limb than mine are.

But time will tell.

Thanks for the exchanges.

Forgetting snopes for a second, I have sitting in front of me 14 CFR Part 1200 to End, 2003 edition. Part 1211 is marked as "reserved", which is commonly used for provisions that were either deleted or never filled in the first place. The regulation doesn't exist any more, though I don't doubt that it did at one time. As for the possibility of a "secret" regulation subjecting civilians to criminal liability, that's unconstitutional and would be blown out the door by the first judge to hear it.

Here's another interesting article.

From:

http://www.presidentialufo.8m.com/eisenhow5.htm

President Dwight D. Eisenhower

UFO Articles Related to his White House Administration

The following is a historical look at the information the Eisenhower administration was receiving during the time they were making negative comments about UFOs and space travel.

Mars May have Orbiting Space Base, says White House Advisor

March 1960: The Martian moon Phobos, generally accepted as a celestial body, actually may be an artificial satellite launched long ago by an advanced Martian race, according to Dr. S. Fred Singer, special advisor to President Eisenhower on space developments. No mention was made of the other Mars moon, Deimos.

In his published opinion, Dr. Singer backed a claim first made by the Soviet astrophysicist Shklovsky. The Russian scientist's announcement that Phobos was a hollow, artificial satellite, proving the existence of a Martian civilization, set off heated arguments among astronomers. Shklovsky based his decision on a long study of Phobos' peculiar orbit, which other astronomers have noted. The Russian claim has calculations and those of earlier astronomers prove Phobos cannot possibly be an ordinary moon.

Though Dr. Singer said the figures still had to be proved, his Phobos statement in the February Astronautics, rejected other astronomers' objections.

"I would be very disappointed if it turns out to be solid," said the white House advisor. If the figures were correct, he stated, then Phobos undoubtedly is a hollow, artificial satellite. If it is, he said, its purpose would probably be to sweep up radiation in the Mars' atmosphere, so that Martians could safely operate around their planet. Dr. Singer also pointed out that Phobos would make an ideal space base, both for Martians and earthlings.

In light of this article, there was an interesting assessment of Mars given during a space briefing presented during an Eisenhower cabinet meeting. The briefing, by Eisenhower Science Advisor Dr. James Killian, was given March 14, 1958 -- "Mars - Much more exciting. Conditions more similar to earth -- Undoubtedly some form of life, although probably not ones which we would recognize."

In 1963, Raymond H. Wilson Jr., Chief of Applied Mathematics at NASA, joined Shklovsky and Dr. Singer in their Martian conclusions. He stated that "Phobos might be a colossal base orbiting Mars." He also stated that NASA itself was considering the possibility, and was planning for special probes that would answer the question.

Dr Iosif Shklovsky based his conclusion on calculations that had been done by the U.S. Naval Observatory (rumored in the 1980s to have been the home of the elusive MJ-12 group). Shklovsky stated Phobos was being "slowed by electromagnetic drag and tidal friction more than was possible was an actual solid moon."

Shklovsky is also famous for having written a 1966 book on SETI called Intelligent Life in the Universe. A famous astronomer by the name of Carl Sagan was asked to edit the book. When he had finished adding all his viewpoints the book had doubled in length and he became a co-authored with Shklovsky. Their views on extra-terrestrial life still remained at odds. During the Symposium on Unidentified Flying Objects - Hearing before the Committee on Science and Astronautics, Sagan was asked by Congressman Roush if Shklovsky shared his views. Sagan replied:

I think he shares my restraint. I think both of us would say we think this is an extremely important subject, that we are on the frontier of being able to find out, but that neither of us knows whether there is or isn't life out there. Let me say if it turns out there isn't life on Mars, that is almost as interesting as if we find there is life on Mars, because then we have to ask, what happened different on Mars than on the Earth, so that life arose here and not there. That will surely give us a very profound entry into the question of follow-up of evolution and the cosmic context.

Without getting into the fact that I assess complex data sets for a living, I guess maybe it takes a type of intelligence I don't possess to understand how fact A (UFOs render cameras inoperative) and fact B (there are lots of pictures of UFOs) can both be true in the same universe.

If I were asked to explain the lack of photos I might choose the simpler explanation that they don't exist rather than postulating the more complex solution you espouse.

If you do set up a UFO ping-list, please add me to it.

I think the Constitutional problems in this arena are legion.

Not that that's ever stopped the government, much less the worst among us . . . witness Dilldo and Shrillery Clinton.

I understand your reasoning.

I just don't believe it is the best ACTUAL fit for the data involved.

Glad you're a complex data analyzer. Should be interesting at times.

Oh,

A simple solution to A and B

is that sometimes they bother or succeed in rendering cameras inoperable.

Sometimes they don't. In fact, sometimes they seem to be performing for the cameras.

Fascinating bunch of data.

With all respect, the fact that many (not even a majority) pieces of UFO footage have been proven hoaxes does not mean that all such footage is fake. That's akin to saying that because some women have faked claims of rape, that therefore no claim of rape can be taken seriously. On the contrary, doesn't each deserve to stand or fall on its own merits?

Mars May have Orbiting Space Base,

I've read that before. There have been many US and Russian probes into and around Mars that have went dark when they got near.

An interesting article from Ike's era

from:

http://www.presidentialufo.8m.com/general.htm

General Andrew Goodpaster

conducted by George Filer

George A. Filer's interview on June 10, 1998, with General Andrew J. Goodpaster at the Eisenhower Institute, Washington, DC. Goodpaster was the former Strategic and Policy Staff Secretary for President Eisenhower from 1954-61. Later he was Commander-in-Chief U. S. Forces and Supreme Allied Commander in Europe from 1969-74.

He genuinely seems to have liked the President and enjoyed working closely with him. We discussed the Air Victory Museum and its advisors such as Admiral Moorer, most of whom he knew. I handed him the Case Statement concerning the Museum and he took about five minutes to flip through all the pages commenting on many items. He was amazed we were building a ME-262 German Fighter for the museum. He commented we were really frightened by that aircraft at the end of World War II.

He had worked with General Eisenhower during World War II. He felt that we had to keep the Russians off balance with frequent over flights, penetrations, and similar actions during the Eisenhower Administration. If we maintained a comparatively defensive posture as under the Kennedy Administration, they would advance as shown by the Cuban crisis.

General Goodpaster was in charge of the day to day coordination on all military and intelligence matters for the White House. We talked extensively about the U-2 over-flights. The President approved each flight on a need basis. He only allowed a few days for the flight to be launched or it was canceled. They knew the Soviets were launching fighters and firing missiles at the U-2's, so it was just a matter of time before they destroyed one. He felt, they handled the actual shoot down of Gary Francis Powers rather poorly. He thought the British were also launching some of their flights with Canberra's and other aircraft.

President Eisenhower wanted civilian intelligence organizations to provide most of the intelligence rather than the military intelligence services. He felt there was too much competition between the military branches to provide accurate data. Eisenhower wanted the Navy to get going with the first satellites, but the Vanguard had a series of failures.

He was not aware of any disc aircraft being built by our government. I showed him the plans for the Silverbug Disc aircraft and he seemed surprised. He mentioned the Navy had a large research program that may have built some kind of disc. I asked about the President's announcement in the New York Times on December 16, 1954, stating that the Air Force had informed him that UFOs were not from outer space. The General claimed was not aware of the announcement.

I asked about Eisenhower drawing both triangle and disc shaped craft on his meeting agendas? He explained that the President was an artist and doodled with a pencil almost continuously. Another little known fact is that Eisenhower had also been a pilot.

I asked the General, if he knew Lt. Col. Corso? He indicated he had heard of him in regards to the Korean prisoners of war. He my have met him. He thought he dealt with the psychology of prisoners of war.

I showed him Corso's book, and he laughed as he read the cover. He claimed he had no knowledge of the book, UFOs, aliens, or crashes. He also knew General Trudeau, who had been Corso's commander. He had no knowledge of a file cabinet with alien artifacts. He handed the book back without opening it.

I asked him if General Eisenhower had met with aliens? He laughed, and assured me that he would have known if that happened. He could affirm that no such meeting had ever taken place. He seemed amused by the book but did not seem to take it seriously.

He did state, that important people from other countries had queried him with a similar set of questions about UFOs, He implied his answers to them were similar to mine. He indicated the only other groups who might have knowledge would have been the National Security Council or the Research and Development Group under Dr. Killian.

General Goodpaster has an excellent grasp of history, politics, military, engineering and foreign affairs. His complete lack of knowledge concerning UFOs was unexpected, and seemed almost over done. He kept pointing to the fact his work was the daily hands-on-control of the military, and not with long range planning.

I also brought up formally highly classified information concerning our raids, sabotage and intelligence collection forays behind Soviet lines using foreign nationals. These former defectors that went to work for us were known as Cobra Teams. He acted somewhat uncomfortable about these missions and avoided confirming these raids.

He was gracious, friendly and open concerning every subject, but UFOs and the raids. He was in daily contact with the JCS and most of our intelligence agencies.

He did not deny the existence of UFOs. However, his demeanor implied the government felt UFOs did not exist or were of little importance. Less likely is the possibility this subject is the highest classified program in the government, and key personnel have been taught to avoid discussing at any cost. It's probable he would not provide me with classified data unless I had a need to know.

He seemed to enjoy talking and stated he wanted me to stay longer. We talked for almost two hours. He liked telling little stories about him and Eisenhower. He encouraged me to return in the near future. He was very much a gentleman with high moral standards and concepts of how a President and officers should act. It was apparent he was upset with the decline in behavior in high places.

He mentioned Dr. Killian several times and that the Navy had a whole series of special programs under development. His attitude implied he felt UFOs were of little significance. The only hint he provided was that they may have been part of a Research and Development program probably with the Navy. It's possible he had heard something about this and was not sure, if had been declassified.

Frankly, based on the conversation even this is rather doubtful. Also, it is apparent he felt he knew what the Army and probably the Air Force had under development. Additional, meetings might prove more fruitful if he could be shown declassified documents concerning the subject.

Regards,
George A. Filer

An article and footnotes, in part, regarding a crash in my neck of the woods when I was about a year old . . . from: http://www.presidentialufo.8m.com/crashed_saucer.htm#_edn4 ----------------------------- Wilbert Smith, A Crashed Saucer, and the Ultimate Alien Encounter Grant Cameron As more and more is made public about the flying saucer research of Canadian Project Magnet Director Wilbert Smith, it becomes more and more apparent that Smith enjoyed a high “need-to-know” on the subject, and at least temporarily held a close relationship with those doing the highest-level research in the United States. Agencies included the CIA, U.S. Navy, FBI, NASA, and the U.S. Research and Development Board. Wilbert Smith wrote about some of this cooperation in his November 21, 1950 Top Secret UFO memo to the Department of Transport. “They indicated,” Smith wrote, “that if Canada is doing anything at all in geo-magnetics they would welcome a discussion with suitably accredited Canadians.” Vannevar Bush, who Wilbert Smith had described in the Top Secret UFO memo as the head of a small group in the United States making a “concentrated effort” to discover the modus operandi of the flying saucers, also discussed Canadian-U.S. cooperation. “We must depend heavily on the Canadians for investigation of communication, navigation, projectile control methods and ionospheric measurements in the all-important auroral belt. Interchange of technical information should be uninhibited to enable us to gain necessary Canadian information so that studies of the earth’s magnetic field may be completed.” [1],[2] As a strange footnote to the possible exchange of flying saucer secrets from the United States to the Canadians, all disclosure of technical information to foreign nationals was contained in policy document “State-Defense MIC (Military Information Control Committee) 206/29.” The committee determined the ”various potential countries-recipient and delineated the limits of classification” for each “whether made orally or by means of transfer of reports or other documents.” The Committee had a member from each of the three military services, and there was a fourth member of the committee from the Research and Development Board. Interestingly, the R&DB member for the period 1950-1951 when Smith first interviewed Dr. Robert Sarbacher, wrote his Top Secret UFO memo, and was sending UFO papers to Vannevar Bush, was none other Dr. Eric A. Walker. (At the time Executive Director at the R&DB) Dr. Walker would go on to give a number of UFO interviews, which became the basic of the book “UFOs, MJ-12, and the Government.” If Smith had requested access to the craft and bodies, later interviews with Dr. Walker indicate Walker would have known where to send him. The Crashed Saucer The Smith crashed flying saucer story actually goes back to the early 1980s. Alberta researcher John Musgrave told this researcher that Buck Buchanan, a close private associate of Smith in his post Project Magnet flying saucer research (1954-1961), lived near him and was telling him some incredible stories about his days working with Smith. In a later letter to this author, Musgrave mentioned the story that Smith claimed he had been given a peak at a flying saucer at a Washington D.C. Air Force Base in the early 1950s. Although Musgrave didn’t reveal the source, it seemed certain that this was one of the amazing stories he had been told by Buchanan. Musgrave stated his belief that he thought Smith might have been caught up in some sort of disinformation, and only thought he had seen a real craft. Musgrave made no reference to alien bodies being involved in the Washington saucer story. In April 2002 I interviewed Wilbert Smith’s oldest son James and asked him about the crashed flying story told by Buchanan. James Smith confirmed the story, stating that his father had told him the story near the end of his life. What he had been told agreed with Buchanan’s Washington Air Force Base version. The Bodies A second item that adds credence to the idea that Smith had been taken into the ultimate inner circle of those who had actually controlled the extraterrestrial proof was a story that Wilbert Smith had actually seen the extraterrestrial bodies from one of the crashes. This genesis of this body story goes back to the Hotel Algonquin in 1972. Psychiatrist and paranormal researcher Dr. Berthold Schwarz was meeting with Harold Sherman, a renowned paragnost, psychic researcher and author of more than 90 books. Sherman was also prominent for his experiments in telepathy conducted between himself in New York City and Sir Hubert Wilkins who was at the time in the Canadian arctic. During the conversation with Dr. Schwarz, Sherman began talking about his friendship with Mr. Silas Newton. Newton was the geophysicist, and oil businessman who gave the original lecture about the 1948 Aztec, New Mexico crash at the University of Denver on March 8, 1950. It was also Silas Newton who had approached prominent Hollywood writer Frank Scully with the story of the Aztec crash, which Scully wrote up in a best selling book called “Behind the Flying Saucers.” The book created a stir of controversy and was generally written off by the majority of researchers as a hoax. Part of book’s problems was that despite many attempts from researchers, reporters, and people offering movie deals, neither Newton nor Scully would reveal the eight different sources that had provided the details of the Aztec crash. Harold Sherman had met Newton through Frank Scully who had been a long-time friend. He went on to know Newton for 30 years and gained great respect for him. He called him “an altogether extraordinary person who probably was misunderstood in many fields, but he had an awful lot to him.”[3] According to Schwarz, it was during the 1972 discussion that Sherman had told him Wilbert Smith had provided access to the Aztec crash bodies for Silas Newton. In his 1983 book “UFO Dynamics“ Schwarz wrote “through the intervention of Wilbert Smith, electronics expert and organizer of Project Magnet Newton later actually saw the humanoids himself.”[4] The significant part of this disclosure is that the Newton, although accosted by many researchers as an untrustworthy con man, ended up describing an event that now fits with what we know about Smith. As well as telling a story that other more reliable people were telling, the story also rings true because if Newton made up the story about seeing the bodies it makes no sense that he would claim to have been given this ultimate Top Secret access through a foreign national. He would surely have claimed access through some high level U.S. official, or through his mysterious group of eight scientists known as ‘Dr. Gee.” Another fact not known in 1972 when Schwarz and Sherman spoke is the fact that Smith was very interested in the Aztec crash. In 1983 a transcript of a September 1950 interview between Wilbert Smith and a U.S. military scientist by the name of Dr. Robert Sarbacher was released. In this interview Dr. Robert Sarbacher had told Smith “the facts in the book (Frank Scully’s book on crashed flying saucers) are substantially correct.”[5] Smith would therefore have been operating under the assumption that the Aztec crash did take place despite the numerous debunking articles that were being written about the Scully book in the early fifties. There is little doubt that Smith would have followed on Aztec with other high-ranking U.S. officials. There was no correspondence between Smith and Scully or Newton found in Scully’s files at the University of Wyoming, or in the Wilbert Smith files found at the University of Ottawa. Any contact with Newton by Smith would have been by phone or through channels. The evidence that Smith had seen the bodies continued to surface in a 1997 message published on the Usenet from a former President of the Montreal Flying Saucer Club. This group was very active during the sixties, and it had contacts with the Ottawa Flying Saucer Club just down the road. The two groups had also done work together on two large objects that had been recovered from the shore of the St. Laurence River in 1961. The story told by the former president, who identified himself only as The Observer, is that four members of the Montreal group had been visiting Ottawa in early 1964, and that they had stayed over-night at Mrs. Smith’s home. It was during supper during the evening that Mrs. Smith told tales about her former husband. One of the stories included the fact that Wilbert Smith had personally viewed dead alien bodies. In an E-mail to this author The Observer wrote, “We were told about the bodies that Wilbert Smith had seen when he was personally invited by the US military. We were simply told that he saw the bodies and from the impression that I received it was for only a short time - minutes not hours.”[6] This Montreal Flying Saucer Club member further described the bodies according to what he recalled Mrs. Smith had stated. “Mr. Smith described (to his wife) the dead occupants as having been approximately 4.5 to 5 feet in height, grayish blue tint to the skin, large eyes, small slit for a mouth and four long fingers with no thumbs.”[7] This large eyes and four finger description is the only time a “grey type” description of the alien was ever associated with Wilbert Smith. The Observer, in relating what Mrs. Smith had told the four Montreal members, might have added more than what they were actually told. For example, in a separate article written by The Observer concerning the disclosures made by Wilbert’s wife, the claim was made that the Smith description was associated with Roswell. The article also stated Smith had been invited to the crash site. Smith did not get involved in flying saucers till 1950, so there is no way he was at the Roswell crash site in July 1947.[8] The large eyed grey idea was not only unknown to Wilbert Smith, it was also unknown in the UFO world prior to the 1961 abduction of Betty and Barney Hill. There were tall 7’ 8’ or 10’ beings, little men, small hairy dwarf like beings, dwarf-like beings with large heads, entities shaped like potato bags, robot-like creatures, entities without heads, and many many “humanlike figures.” The days when Wilbert Smith was researching where dominated by contactees, and Wilbert Smith was one himself. In a letter to a Mr. Milne in 1957, for example, Smith stated, “It is my opinion that the people from outside are so much like us that they could mingle with us and we would be none the wiser.” Once Smith died and the Hill abduction gained widespread publicity, all the alien encounters from 1947-1961 were basically removed from UFO histories as if they had never occurred. Most present day researchers, for example, would probably agree with J. Allen Hynek (Scientific Consultant to the United States Air Force Project Blue Book) who described “most contactees as ‘pseudo-religious fanatics of low credibility value,”[9] or with abduction researcher David Jacobs who stated “basically contactee followers were gullible people who, through lack of adequate factual information about the UFO phenomena, formulated a belief system that easily incorporated the contactees “claims as fact.’”[10] The usual telling of the Smith body story is the one related in 1998 when researcher and author Palmiro Campagna wrote the following in the Postscript section of his 1998 soft cover edition of “The UFO Files.” He wrote, “According to James Smith, on one of his many trips to the U.S. Wilbert Smith told his son that he was shown recovered bodies from a recovered craft. Wilbert Smith described the bodies as small and humanoid in appearance.” In July 2000 I interviewed James Smith by phone and revisited the issue of the alien bodies that Smith had seen. James stated that he had been told about the bodies as his father was near death. James was did not recall that the body description involved greys – simply small people. In March 2002 James Smith was a guest on the “Strange Days . . . Indeed” radio show where he described the UFO hardware his father had received from the United States to analyze, and he again was asked about the alien body story. James Smith described the aliens as “small humanoid” and “like descriptions of the time.” These descriptions were in agreement with descriptions made by many other people having alien encounters in the fifties. They would also agree with Smith’s notion that alien were not much different than we were and might even be distant relatives. Timing If it occurred, it seems most probable that the Smith viewing of the crashed saucers and bodies occurred in the early fifties. The reasons for that would include. v Correspondence from the Canadian Embassy in Washington during 1951 indicate that during that period Smith was dealing, at least indirectly, with Vannevar Bush at the Research and Development Board in Washington, D.C. Bush, being the head of the U.S. flying saucer effort would have been able to give Smith access to craft and bodies. v Most importantly, Smith directed the classified Project Magnet from December 1950 to August 1954. With his clearance he would have been in a position to be shown the craft and body. Once the classified program was closed down in August 1954, Smith’s clearance and “need-to-know” on flying saucers probably went with it. v Prior to the CIA Robertson panel in January 1953, the subject of flying saucers was more openly discussed. It is then more probable Smith was shown the craft and body before the CIA began the debunking campaign. v The report from Sherman that Silas Newton was given access to the bodies through Wilbert Smith’s help, also indicates an early fifties date. v The Musgrave story concerning the Washington crashed saucer viewing mentioned the early fifties. v The tone of Smith writings near the end of his life in 1962 was not upbeat. Smith had not received a message from AFFA for almost two years. He had taken his anti-gravity experiment apart telling his wife that the world was not ready for it. His writing began to reflect his strong belief that the important part of the UFO mystery was in the philosophy of the aliens rather than in their technological hardware. In the early fifties Smith’s writing had showed a keen interest in discovering the propulsion of the strange new objects. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] Memorandum: “Vannevar Bush to Colonel Wood” Research and Development Board Files, National Archives, Box 534, Folder 3. Most of the Canadian contact was made through the liaison of the Research Defense Board of Canada, which was “charged with the establishment of all policies in the field of military research and development as well as exercising the executive functions of administering all the research and development installations in the Military Establishment. [2] Dr. Omond Solandt, then the head of the Canadian Defense Research Board has on many occasions denied that this Smith – Bush relationship occurred. In a June 8, 1991 interview with Dr. Henry Victorian Solandt said, “Not that they (U.S.) were doing any work on it. They were watching it very closely as far as I knew. . . I got my information from Van Bush. At that time I used to see him a couple times during the year, and that was a subject that we sometimes discussed, but we never did any joint work on it.” Solandt was questioned many times about whether or not the Smith had worked with the Americans. In early interviews Solandt stated that Canadians were not granted anything higher than Top Secret. However, in the 1991 interview with Victorian he contradicted this when asked if the Americans would have shared such “very secretive or above top secret” material. “They certainly would have,” replied Solandt. “If we would have shown interest in it and the need to know. We have shared some above top secret information. This is not exactly what we regarded a s being very important. [3] Schwarz, Berthold “UFO Dynamics – Book 2” Carlstadt, New Jersey: Rainbow Books, 1983 p.535 [4] Ibid. P. 534 [5] From the transcript of an interview between Wilbert Smith and Dr. Robert Sarbacher, September 15, 1950. Found in Wilbert Smith’s personal files. [6] E-mail “The Observer to Grant Cameron” [7] The Observer “Roswell is Factual” alt. Alien Visitors 06/18/1997 [8] Another thing that indicates the grey was foreign to Smith and everyone else in the 1950s was the reaction of Wilbert Smith’s metallurgist to Dr. Robert Sarbacher’s description of the alien bodies as “insect like.” When this Sarbacher/Steinman letter became public I sent it to the metallurgist for comment. He phoned days later absolutely shocked at the insect description. He told me that the Smith group had discussed the aliens many times and that this type of alien was never brought up. [9] Pope, Nick, “The Uninvited” [10] Jacobs, David “The UFO Controversy In America” Indiana University Press 1975 p. 113`

GRRR. SORRY. KNEW I SHOULD HAVE PREVIEWED. Didn't realize there was any html coding in there.

Will fix and repost shortly.

PLEASE delete this post which has deleted paragraphing.

I wasn't aware of anything in the msg to trigger the html thing.

Am formatting for a repost now.

No need to leave this mass of lines in the thread.

Thanks much,
Q

TRYING AGAIN WITH FIXED PARAGRAPHING. SORRY FOR THE ERROR BEFORE.

Wilbert Smith, A Crashed Saucer, and the Ultimate Alien Encounter

Grant Cameron

As more and more is made public about the flying saucer research of Canadian Project Magnet Director Wilbert Smith, it becomes more and more apparent that Smith enjoyed a high “need-to-know” on the subject, and at least temporarily held a close relationship with those doing the highest-level research in the United States. Agencies included the CIA, U.S. Navy, FBI, NASA, and the U.S. Research and Development Board.

Wilbert Smith wrote about some of this cooperation in his November 21, 1950 Top Secret UFO memo to the Department of Transport. “They indicated,” Smith wrote, “that if Canada is doing anything at all in geo-magnetics they would welcome a discussion with suitably accredited Canadians.”

Vannevar Bush, who Wilbert Smith had described in the Top Secret UFO memo as the head of a small group in the United States making a “concentrated effort” to discover the modus operandi of the flying saucers, also discussed Canadian-U.S. cooperation.

“We must depend heavily on the Canadians for investigation of communication, navigation, projectile control methods and ionospheric measurements in the all-important auroral belt. Interchange of technical information should be uninhibited to enable us to gain necessary Canadian information so that studies of the earth’s magnetic field may be completed.” [1],[2]

As a strange footnote to the possible exchange of flying saucer secrets from the United States to the Canadians, all disclosure of technical information to foreign nationals was contained in policy document “State-Defense MIC (Military Information Control Committee) 206/29.” The committee determined the ”various potential countries-recipient and delineated the limits of classification” for each “whether made orally or by means of transfer of reports or other documents.”

The Committee had a member from each of the three military services, and there was a fourth member of the committee from the Research and Development Board. Interestingly, the R&DB member for the period 1950-1951 when Smith first interviewed Dr. Robert Sarbacher, wrote his Top Secret UFO memo, and was sending UFO papers to Vannevar Bush, was none other Dr. Eric A. Walker. (At the time Executive Director at the R&DB)

Dr. Walker would go on to give a number of UFO interviews, which became the basic of the book “UFOs, MJ-12, and the Government.” If Smith had requested access to the craft and bodies, later interviews with Dr. Walker indicate Walker would have known where to send him.

The Crashed Saucer

The Smith crashed flying saucer story actually goes back to the early 1980s. Alberta researcher John Musgrave told this researcher that Buck Buchanan, a close private associate of Smith in his post Project Magnet flying saucer research (1954-1961), lived near him and was telling him some incredible stories about his days working with Smith.

In a later letter to this author, Musgrave mentioned the story that Smith claimed he had been given a peak at a flying saucer at a Washington D.C. Air Force Base in the early 1950s. Although Musgrave didn’t reveal the source, it seemed certain that this was one of the amazing stories he had been told by Buchanan.

Musgrave stated his belief that he thought Smith might have been caught up in some sort of disinformation, and only thought he had seen a real craft. Musgrave made no reference to alien bodies being involved in the Washington saucer story.

In April 2002 I interviewed Wilbert Smith’s oldest son James and asked him about the crashed flying story told by Buchanan. James Smith confirmed the story, stating that his father had told him the story near the end of his life. What he had been told agreed with Buchanan’s Washington Air Force Base version.

The Bodies

A second item that adds credence to the idea that Smith had been taken into the ultimate inner circle of those who had actually controlled the extraterrestrial proof was a story that Wilbert Smith had actually seen the extraterrestrial bodies from one of the crashes.

This genesis of this body story goes back to the Hotel Algonquin in 1972. Psychiatrist and paranormal researcher Dr. Berthold Schwarz was meeting with Harold Sherman, a renowned paragnost, psychic researcher and author of more than 90 books. Sherman was also prominent for his experiments in telepathy conducted between himself in New York City and Sir Hubert Wilkins who was at the time in the Canadian arctic.

During the conversation with Dr. Schwarz, Sherman began talking about his friendship with Mr. Silas Newton. Newton was the geophysicist, and oil businessman who gave the original lecture about the 1948 Aztec, New Mexico crash at the University of Denver on March 8, 1950.

It was also Silas Newton who had approached prominent Hollywood writer Frank Scully with the story of the Aztec crash, which Scully wrote up in a best selling book called “Behind the Flying Saucers.” The book created a stir of controversy and was generally written off by the majority of researchers as a hoax.

Part of book’s problems was that despite many attempts from researchers, reporters, and people offering movie deals, neither Newton nor Scully would reveal the eight different sources that had provided the details of the Aztec crash.

Harold Sherman had met Newton through Frank Scully who had been a long-time friend. He went on to know Newton for 30 years and gained great respect for him. He called him “an altogether extraordinary person who probably was misunderstood in many fields, but he had an awful lot to him.”[3]

According to Schwarz, it was during the 1972 discussion that Sherman had told him Wilbert Smith had provided access to the Aztec crash bodies for Silas Newton. In his 1983 book “UFO Dynamics“ Schwarz wrote “through the intervention of Wilbert Smith, electronics expert and organizer of Project Magnet Newton later actually saw the humanoids himself.”[4]

The significant part of this disclosure is that the Newton, although accosted by many researchers as an untrustworthy con man, ended up describing an event that now fits with what we know about Smith.

As well as telling a story that other more reliable people were telling, the story also rings true because if Newton made up the story about seeing the bodies it makes no sense that he would claim to have been given this ultimate Top Secret access through a foreign national. He would surely have claimed access through some high level U.S. official, or through his mysterious group of eight scientists known as ‘Dr. Gee.”

Another fact not known in 1972 when Schwarz and Sherman spoke is the fact that Smith was very interested in the Aztec crash. In 1983 a transcript of a September 1950 interview between Wilbert Smith and a U.S. military scientist by the name of Dr. Robert Sarbacher was released.

In this interview Dr. Robert Sarbacher had told Smith “the facts in the book (Frank Scully’s book on crashed flying saucers) are substantially correct.”[5] Smith would therefore have been operating under the assumption that the Aztec crash did take place despite the numerous debunking articles that were being written about the Scully book in the early fifties. There is little doubt that Smith would have followed on Aztec with other high-ranking U.S. officials.

There was no correspondence between Smith and Scully or Newton found in Scully’s files at the University of Wyoming, or in the Wilbert Smith files found at the University of Ottawa. Any contact with Newton by Smith would have been by phone or through channels.

The evidence that Smith had seen the bodies continued to surface in a 1997 message published on the Usenet from a former President of the Montreal Flying Saucer Club. This group was very active during the sixties, and it had contacts with the Ottawa Flying Saucer Club just down the road. The two groups had also done work together on two large objects that had been recovered from the shore of the St. Laurence River in 1961.

The story told by the former president, who identified himself only as The Observer, is that four members of the Montreal group had been visiting Ottawa in early 1964, and that they had stayed over-night at Mrs. Smith’s home.

It was during supper during the evening that Mrs. Smith told tales about her former husband. One of the stories included the fact that Wilbert Smith had personally viewed dead alien bodies. In an E-mail to this author The Observer wrote,

“We were told about the bodies that Wilbert Smith had seen when he was personally invited by the US military. We were simply told that he saw the bodies and from the impression that I received it was for only a short time - minutes not hours.”[6]

This Montreal Flying Saucer Club member further described the bodies according to what he recalled Mrs. Smith had stated.

“Mr. Smith described (to his wife) the dead occupants as having been approximately 4.5 to 5 feet in height, grayish blue tint to the skin, large eyes, small slit for a mouth and four long fingers with no thumbs.”[7]

This large eyes and four finger description is the only time a “grey type” description of the alien was ever associated with Wilbert Smith. The Observer, in relating what Mrs. Smith had told the four Montreal members, might have added more than what they were actually told. For example, in a separate article written by The Observer concerning the disclosures made by Wilbert’s wife, the claim was made that the Smith description was associated with Roswell. The article also stated Smith had been invited to the crash site. Smith did not get involved in flying saucers till 1950, so there is no way he was at the Roswell crash site in July 1947.[8]

The large eyed grey idea was not only unknown to Wilbert Smith, it was also unknown in the UFO world prior to the 1961 abduction of Betty and Barney Hill. There were tall 7’ 8’ or 10’ beings, little men, small hairy dwarf like beings, dwarf-like beings with large heads, entities shaped like potato bags, robot-like creatures, entities without heads, and many many “humanlike figures.”

The days when Wilbert Smith was researching where dominated by contactees, and Wilbert Smith was one himself. In a letter to a Mr. Milne in 1957, for example, Smith stated, “It is my opinion that the people from outside are so much like us that they could mingle with us and we would be none the wiser.”

Once Smith died and the Hill abduction gained widespread publicity, all the alien encounters from 1947-1961 were basically removed from UFO histories as if they had never occurred.

Most present day researchers, for example, would probably agree with J. Allen Hynek (Scientific Consultant to the United States Air Force Project Blue Book) who described “most contactees as ‘pseudo-religious fanatics of low credibility value,”[9] or with abduction researcher David Jacobs who stated “basically contactee followers were gullible people who, through lack of adequate factual information about the UFO phenomena, formulated a belief system that easily incorporated the contactees “claims as fact.’”[10]

The usual telling of the Smith body story is the one related in 1998 when researcher and author Palmiro Campagna wrote the following in the Postscript section of his 1998 soft cover edition of “The UFO Files.” He wrote,

“According to James Smith, on one of his many trips to the U.S. Wilbert Smith told his son that he was shown recovered bodies from a recovered craft. Wilbert Smith described the bodies as small and humanoid in appearance.”

In July 2000 I interviewed James Smith by phone and revisited the issue of the alien bodies that Smith had seen. James stated that he had been told about the bodies as his father was near death. James was did not recall that the body description involved greys – simply small people.

In March 2002 James Smith was a guest on the “Strange Days . . . Indeed” radio show where he described the UFO hardware his father had received from the United States to analyze, and he again was asked about the alien body story.

James Smith described the aliens as “small humanoid” and “like descriptions of the time.” These descriptions were in agreement with descriptions made by many other people having alien encounters in the fifties. They would also agree with Smith’s notion that alien were not much different than we were and might even be distant relatives.

Timing

If it occurred, it seems most probable that the Smith viewing of the crashed saucers and bodies occurred in the early fifties. The reasons for that would include.

v Correspondence from the Canadian Embassy in Washington during 1951 indicate that during that period Smith was dealing, at least indirectly, with Vannevar Bush at the Research and Development Board in Washington, D.C. Bush, being the head of the U.S. flying saucer effort would have been able to give Smith access to craft and bodies.

v Most importantly, Smith directed the classified Project Magnet from December 1950 to August 1954. With his clearance he would have been in a position to be shown the craft and body. Once the classified program was closed down in August 1954, Smith’s clearance and “need-to-know” on flying saucers probably went with it.

v Prior to the CIA Robertson panel in January 1953, the subject of flying saucers was more openly discussed. It is then more probable Smith was shown the craft and body before the CIA began the debunking campaign.

v The report from Sherman that Silas Newton was given access to the bodies through Wilbert Smith’s help, also indicates an early fifties date.

v The Musgrave story concerning the Washington crashed saucer viewing mentioned the early fifties.

v The tone of Smith writings near the end of his life in 1962 was not upbeat. Smith had not received a message from AFFA for almost two years. He had taken his anti-gravity experiment apart telling his wife that the world was not ready for it. His writing began to reflect his strong belief that the important part of the UFO mystery was in the philosophy of the aliens rather than in their technological hardware. In the early fifties Smith’s writing had showed a keen interest in discovering the propulsion of the strange new objects.

FOOTNOTES BELOW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Memorandum: “Vannevar Bush to Colonel Wood” Research and Development Board Files, National Archives, Box 534, Folder 3. Most of the Canadian contact was made through the liaison of the Research Defense Board of Canada, which was “charged with the establishment of all policies in the field of military research and development as well as exercising the executive functions of administering all the research and development installations in the Military Establishment.

[2] Dr. Omond Solandt, then the head of the Canadian Defense Research Board has on many occasions denied that this Smith – Bush relationship occurred. In a June 8, 1991 interview with Dr. Henry Victorian Solandt said, “Not that they (U.S.) were doing any work on it. They were watching it very closely as far as I knew. . . I got my information from Van Bush. At that time I used to see him a couple times during the year, and that was a subject that we sometimes discussed, but we never did any joint work on it.”

Solandt was questioned many times about whether or not the Smith had worked with the Americans. In early interviews Solandt stated that Canadians were not granted anything higher than Top Secret. However, in the 1991 interview with Victorian he contradicted this when asked if the Americans would have shared such “very secretive or above top secret” material. “They certainly would have,” replied Solandt. “If we would have shown interest in it and the need to know. We have shared some above top secret information. This is not exactly what we regarded a s being very important.

[3] Schwarz, Berthold “UFO Dynamics – Book 2” Carlstadt, New Jersey: Rainbow Books, 1983 p.535

[4] Ibid. P. 534

[5] From the transcript of an interview between Wilbert Smith and Dr. Robert Sarbacher, September 15, 1950. Found in Wilbert Smith’s personal files.

[6] E-mail “The Observer to Grant Cameron”

[7] The Observer “Roswell is Factual” alt. Alien Visitors 06/18/1997

[8] Another thing that indicates the grey was foreign to Smith and everyone else in the 1950s was the reaction of Wilbert Smith’s metallurgist to Dr. Robert Sarbacher’s description of the alien bodies as “insect like.” When this Sarbacher/Steinman letter became public I sent it to the metallurgist for comment. He phoned days later absolutely shocked at the insect description. He told me that the Smith group had discussed the aliens many times and that this type of alien was never brought up.

[9] Pope, Nick, “The Uninvited”

[10] Jacobs, David “The UFO Controversy In America” Indiana University Press 1975 p. 113`

Article purportedly sent to Vannevar Bush from:

http://www.presidentialufo.8m.com/keyhoe_redraft.htm

It includes some stuff on design of propulsion dynamics

Canadians Sent Flying Saucer Article to Vannevar Bush

Grant Cameron

In November 1950, Major Donald Keyhoe sent a six-page draft paper on flying saucers to the Canadian Defense Research Board (DRB), and Wilbert Smith, through the Canadian Embassy in Washington, D.C. The DRB was a Canadian defense group responsible for all weapons development in Canada, and a group, which provided “full cooperation” to the Canadian government official flying saucer investigation,[1] which became known as “Project Magnet.”

Keyhoe’s intention was to publish the article in “True” magazine. It was an article that dealt with the Canadian government effort to investigate flying saucers, and was based on an earlier interview that Keyhoe had been done with Wilbert Smith, who would go on to head the Canadian Government saucer study. Dr. Omond Solandt, then the Chairman of the DRB realized that the article was going to present problems, so he forwarded the article on to Smith.

In a reply letter to Keyhoe, written on November 24, 1950, Smith thanked Keyhoe for “letting us see this advance document and to comment upon it.” He stated, however, that he felt “the presentation might cause considerable embarrassment to the Canadian Government since they would be required to make some sort of official statement shortly after the release of the article, which they are not, at the present time, in a position to do.”[2]

On the same day Smith wrote back to Dr. Solandt notifying him that he had sent a five-page revision of the flying saucer paper to Keyhoe along with a letter explaining the Canadian position. In his memo to Solandt, Smith also suggested that “the article, as revised, be scrutinized by others in the group” for any further revisions they might suggest.[3]

The reference to a “group” associated with the Defense Research Board, dealing with UFOs, directly opposes letters and interviews with Dr. Solandt in the eighties and early nineties. During a 1991 interview, for example, Solandt claimed the Defense Research Board support of Smith was “entirely passive”, consisting only of supplying a garage size building in 1953, which was used for the “flying saucer observatory.”[4]

In the memo to Solandt, Wilbert Smith also stated that the article had been sent to the U.S. Research and Development Board, which was the U.S. equivalent to the Defense Research Board. “The publication of this material,” wrote Smith, “if permitted by the United States Research and Development Board, would be in the public interest.”

Most importantly, it should be noted that the following five-page draft was sent not only to the Research and Development Board, but to a key member of the board Vannevar Bush, who Smith had identified in a Top Secret memo as the head of a small group was making a concentrated effort on the modus operandi of the saucers. This Bush role in the article was described in January 1951 correspondence between Wilbert Smith and the Canadian Embassy in Washington, D.C.

No document has yet surfaced as to exactly what Bush’s opinion of the article was. We do know that it was cleared for public distribution though. The Canadian military liaison to the Research and Development Board, Arnauld Wright, got the article from Vannevar Bush and returned it to Keyhoe.[5] It did not make the 1950 issue of “True” as intended, but was published in Major Keyhoe’s `1954 book “Flying Saucers from Outer Space” p. 133-136.

The Smith revision of the Keyhoe article forwarded to Vannevar Bush “for clearance” was found in Smith’s files at the University of Ottawa. It reads as follows.

DRAFT OF PROPOSED REVISION OF “TRUE” ARTICLE ON FLYING SAUCERS[6]

A group of Canadian Scientists has been working for some time on certain problems connected with the earth’s magnetic field. These investigations appear to point the way to new technology in magnetics, and if the initial conclusions are correct, they offer a ready-made explanation for many of the striking features, which have been reported in connection with the sighting of flying saucers. The basic promise is that it is possible to produce a magnetic “sink” within the earth’s field; that is, a region into which the magnetic flux will flow at a controlled rate, giving some of its potential energy in the process. Such a sink would have many interesting properties, such as the following;

Electrical power could be obtained from the collapse of the earth’s magnetic field into the sink.
Powerful reaction forces could be developed into a conducting ring surrounding the sink and offset from it, sufficient to support a suitably designed ship and to propel it.
If the rate of flow of magnetic flux is modulated the resulting magnetic disturbance could be used for communication purposes.
It is curious to note that most of the descriptions of flying saucers are in accordance with the design, which would be necessary to exploit the properties of a magnetic sink. For example, the saucers are described as consisting of a large circular disc, slightly dished, with a small central cabin. In this sense, the sink could be located in the upper central part of the cabin, and the collapsing field in cutting through the surrounding magnetic ring would induce in it an electric current, which would react with the magnetic field that induced it, producing a force, which would have a substantial vertical component. Support and propulsion of the ship would then be a combination of this resultant force, the airfoil action of the disc, and the interaction between currents in the disc by its rotation and the main field.

Rotation of the disc may be either deliberate, for induction of eddy currents or may be incidentally caused by the electronic drag of the very large current circulating around the disc. In any case, there is good observational evidence that the disc appears to rotate.

Since the lift on the saucer will be proportional to the product of the earth’s magnetic field and the field produced by the current induced by the disc, it follows that when the saucer is accelerating upwards, a greater force is required and hence a greater circulating current. If the circulating current is sufficiently large and the cooling of the disc is inadequate, it may become red or even white hot, which is in line with several reported observations. Also, under certain conditions of operation a very high voltage may be built up between the center and the rim of the disc, which would result in corona discharge through the surrounding air if the saucer were at a sufficiently high altitude. Such a discharge would resemble the northern lights but would be very much more intense. This also seems to be confirmed by observations.

Navigation of such a flying saucer would be a very complex process indeed. In the first place the earth’s magnetic field makes all sorts of angles with the horizontal, depending upon geographical latitude, and upon peculiar local conditions. Thus, the direction of the force, which results from the interaction of the earth’s field and the field of the disc, may be in almost any direction.

Furthermore the tilt of the saucer to get the reaction force in the wanted direction most probably will result in aerodynamic forces in some other direction. Navigation therefore would resolve into a determination of the field direction, comparison with the direction in which it is desired to move, and an analysis of the aerodynamic forces, which would result from such a motion, and the suitable correction in the initial tilt of the saucer and the flow of magnetic flux. It is doubtful if a human pilot could manage to do all this at the speed that which would be necessary to maneuver a saucer at the speeds and through the intricate motions, which have been observed. It is therefore highly probable that the saucer control systems are semi if not totally automatic, and most likely a push button effort.

There are many reports of saucers hovering in one spot for some time. For a saucer designed to operate as described, this would probably be its easiest maneuver, as it would be necessary merely to adjust the flux flow and tilt until the resultant force exactly balanced the weight of the saucer. There would be little or no aerodynamic problem in this case.

The only sound, which would be expected from such a saucer, would be a swish as of any object passing through the air, plus any incidental noises, which might originate with the internal machinery of the saucer. There would be no roar of engine exhaust or jets, or beat of propellers, or any other noises usually associated with aircraft.

It would be quite possible for a saucer such as has been described to leave vapor trails if it happened to pass through a region of supersaturated air, with a sufficient voltage on the disc to produce a corona discharge. The ions produced by the discharge would form nuclei for the condensation of droplets of water or crystals of frost, and the path of the saucer would be marked by the resulting visible cloud.

There is no indication that accelerations to which a saucer crew would be subjected would be any different from the accelerations going on through the same maneuvers. Those authorities that have been consulted say that gravity can be neutralized or the inertia of matter overcome. Where saucers have been observed to execute close turns and other maneuvers which would result in large accelerations, it is most probable that such saucers are remotely controlled and do not contain living matter as we know it.

[1] Letter – Wilbert Smith to Gordon Cox, January 3, 1951.

[2] Letter – Wilbert Smith to Major Donald Keyhoe, November 24, 1950. ) Copy of letter from Wilbert Smith files at the University of Ottawa Archives.)

[3] Memo – Wilbert Smith to Dr. Omond Solandt, November 24, 1950. (From Smith files.)

[4] Telephone Interview – Dr. Omond Solandt by Dr. Armen Victorian, June 8, 1991.

[5] Letter - Gordon E. Cox to Wilbert Smith, January 6, 1951 (written on Canadian Embassy stationary, and found in the Wilbert Smith files) Also see Letter, Wilbert Smith to Gordon Cox, January 3, 1951.

[6] The draft of Smith revision was found in the Wilbert Smith files at the University of Ottawa Archives.

A purported 1959 CIA memo--hand written

is available at:

http://www.presidentialufo.8m.com/npic_page_1.htm

Thank you, Quix.
Fascinating, for sure.
Some of it not so long ago, or at least I can make it correspond to certain times in my life.

Thanks.

Am sick of grading papers and having some R & R.

If you ever care to share more, please feel free via FREEPMAIL or private email or hereon--just let me know, please!

Blessings,

JUST RAN ACROSS THIS

re: "MOUNTING EVIDENCE FOR MJ-12 FILES AUTHENTICITY" or some such by Robert M Wood, PhD

in a pdf file--troublesome things.

at:

http://209.132.68.98/pdf/rmwood_mufon2001.pdf