Students can't bring gun to firearms class

WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Tuesday, October 21, 2003

[JohnHuang2]

A 12-year-old student who brought his unloaded gun to a firearms-safety course at his public school was met with a surprise when administrators and instructors intercepted him in enforcement of the district's new "zero-tolerance policy."

Nick Ziegeweid had been told to bring his shotgun when he signed up for the class earlier this fall at Winona Middle School in Winona, Minn., the Minneapolis Star Tribune reported. But when he arrived on the first day of the Saturday morning course, Oct. 11, the officials reminded him the year-old policy bars students from carrying guns on school grounds, with no exceptions.

The issue has sparked a heated debate in the Mississippi River town, located in one of many rural communities where the firearms course has been conducted through sponsorship of the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources.

Last month, the Winona school board rejected a proposal to make an exception for the course.

"It's like teaching a math class without a calculator," Scott Sabotta, the course instructor, told the Minneapolis paper. "The whole point of the class is to save injury or life. In some ways, our hands have been tied with the decision that they made."

Defending the policy, Steve Kranz, chairman of the school board, said, according to the Star Tribune, "We can't pretend that guns don't exist. The question is: Do schools have a role in educating people about firearms?"

The setting for the weekend class is comfortable to the students, some board members say, but supporters of the policy insist school shootings, such as the 1999 Columbine High School attack, provide reason to ban all firearms from school grounds.

"There needs to be some safety zones," Sue Brown, a school board member, told the paper. "And I think a school district and a school building should be held in higher regard than it is. It's a difficult climate; it's a different day and age. Whatever you can do to restrict, restrict."

Just days before the first class, Superintendent Eric Bartleson notified board members of the conflict with the new policy. He said the course could go on using unloaded firearms brought by the instructors, but the students could not bring their own guns.

However, backers of the course argue "hands-on" training is the best way to teach gun safety and ensure the firearms owned by the students are safe, the Star Tribune reported.

"Every gun is a little different, and they should be familiar with it," said Sabotta. "The last thing I want to see is them going out without having a clue on what they are handling."

Board member Peterson argued, according to the Minneapolis daily, "There is not a kid in this country that doesn't know how to shoot a gun."

"They've seen it on TV and in movies thousands and thousands of times," he said. "We're not teaching shooting. We're teaching safe handling of firearms."

Some board members have suggested moving the course off school grounds, but Peterson says that would require a fee the cash-strapped district cannot afford.

"What is the district's responsibility?" he asked, the Star Tribune reported. "To provide meaningful education to the community. And this, I think, is a very useful and valuable part of providing education in the community."

[JohnHuang2]

Tuesday, October 21, 2003

Quote of the Day by dirtboy

[Lion Den Dan]

Holy smokes. I want to reply to this idiocy but where to begin. Teaching math without a calculator is how it should be done. Teaching gun safety without a gun is not doable. School districts have done nothing to be held in any but the highest contempt so there is no argument in that statement. That kids know how to shoot a gun from TV is a bunch of hogwash. TV is the source of most negligent shootings in this country. This is so scrambled.

[goldstategop]

Liberal idiots. How can you teach a firearms instruction course without a gun? That's like trying to teach driving skills to students without a car!

[JohnHuang2]

There you go again -- bringing common sense into the discussion...

[JohnHuang2]

Not fair! ;-)

[stands2reason]

That kids know how to shoot a gun from TV is a bunch of hogwash.

TV (and movies) makes things worse. Nobody seems to know what gunfire sounds like. I truly believe that needless deaths are caused by people hearing "pop, pop, like a firecracker" (that's usually how the survivors describe it) and not knowing to hit the ground after that first "pop".

Apparently "Pop, pop" isn't as "sexy" a sound as "ka-bloosh" to filmmakers.

[heleny]

How can you teach a firearms instruction course without a gun? That's like trying to teach driving skills to students without a car!

That's a much better analogy than the "math ... without a calculator" argument.

But, schools don't use real cars to teach driver safety. They just show videos/films, read the driver safety manual, and discuss theory without hands-on practice. Still, that's much better than the nonexistent firearms safety classes in CA.

[RatSlayer]

I think this class really goes beyond "gun safety". After all, basic gun safety is as simple as, "Always treat a firearm as if it is loaded. Always point the muzzle in a safe direction. Do not place your finger on the trigger until your sights are aligned. And be aware of your target and beyond."

The intent of the class is really more what I call gun handling. In which you learn how to open and close actions, safe and unsafe, load and unload, how to carry, etc. Which, as you mention, really requires the students to bring their own firearms since there are way too many action types for the instructors to provide all the guns.
Of course, proper 'handling' leads to better safety, so they are related.

I just thought of something extremely sneeky. How about the class agrees to meet in a public parking lot 15 minutes prior to class. The students give the instructor all their firearms and the instructor carries them in. After class, they meet again and the firearms are returned.

VIOLA. Stupid rule foiled by a little ingenuity.

[goldstategop]

I was thinking of the behind the wheel instruction students get after school in cars.

[heleny]

That kids know how to shoot a gun from TV is a bunch of hogwash. TV is the source of most negligent shootings in this country.

Peterson meant that simply shooting a gun doesn't require any knowledge of safety, which is why he stressed that the school was teaching the importance of safety.

He said,

"We're not teaching shooting. We're teaching safe handling of firearms."
...
"What is the district's responsibility?" he asked, the Star Tribune reported. "To provide meaningful education to the community. And this, I think, is a very useful and valuable part of providing education in the community."

[glock rocks]

zero-tolerance = intolerance n. see: prejudice, bigotry, fanaticism, narrow-mindedness

[heleny]

I was thinking of the behind the wheel instruction students get after school in cars.

Yes, I know. But, schools can't provide that type of training, which is typically done in a private setting either through a private company or with parents. On the other hand, firearms safety is something that should be taught by the schools, since a gun is much more portable than a car, and the costs of materials are lower.

Accidents and reckless usage are dangerous with either guns or cars.

[The Other Harry]

"It's like teaching a math class without a calculator,"

That's a lousy analogy. Math is better taught without a calculator.

[Imal]

I had the same problem this article is so rife with muddled thinking that I was left scratching my head, wondering just what the heck I had read, and wishing the article had a logical reset button.

As it is, I'll just shake my head, feel a sense of reinforcement in my belief that public schools are run by the absolutely least-qualified people society has to offer,  say "hmm", and move on.

Things that make you go "Hmm" bump.

[macrahanish #1]

I agree. Calculators and television have dumbed down the sheeple.

[Qwinn]

"Whatever you can do to restrict, restrict."

This should be the Democratic Party motto.

Qwinn

[556x45]

Public schools are places of indoctrination rather than education. There's no room for discussion or debate or critical thought. Views other than The Company Line are quashed/stamped out/etc most brutally. This prepares the students to be slaves.

What the school board failed to understand is that school zones are anything but safe. Criminals (by defn) aren't bound legally or morally to anyones set of rules. They'll pillage where/whenever it suits them even if that place is a school zone and time is during school hours.

On a totally refreshing note...there's a private high school in town where I help out from time to time. Just a couple weeks ago I helped run a shoot for that school at the local range. It sure was great to see the kids get off the bus w/ their own rifles/shotguns. Everybody had a great time and learned alot. Learning how to shoot and asfely handle guns is part of a well rounded education.

[sarasota]

How do you think computers/the internet add to the mix?

[Maelstrom]

It's not like teaching math without a calculator.

It's like teaching math without a PLUS sign.

[Minnesoootan]

I left publik skool in '82.


We had "gun safety" on skool grounds and actually used our lockers to store our guns,we had a small caliber range in the basement for qualifying.

Once the PC hit town,they obeyed,but everyone got together and rebuilt the gun range outside of town....much better environment.

These people should quit whining and just take the class off campus.