Posted on 10/16/2003 7:34:12 AM PDT by Gargantua
Time To Engage God's (America's) Enemies
It has been said that all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing. It's time for Christians to pull our heads out of the sand and take a stand.
One man in California has the Supreme Court of this land now reviewing whether the phrase "under God" should be removed from our Pledge of Allegiance. The Chief Justice of State of Alabama cannot have a display of the Ten Commandments on courthouse property, despite that they are commonly acknowledged to be the basis for all of Western Law. A high school in Louisiana is being sued by the ACLU for saying prayers before football games.
The Liberal Secular Extremists cite the mythical "wall of separation" clause... which appears nowhere in our Constitution.
This is a war, and it is a war to remove every mention of God from every corner of American public life. The goal here is not to enforce our Founders' intent in having written the Constitution, rather it is to eradicate the single source of goodness, truth, and justice (and all of our Constitutionally listed rights...!) the world has in its possession... the Holy Word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
If indeed our Rights as enumerated in our Constitution are inalienable—that is, cannot be taken from us—because, as our founders wrote, they are granted to us by God the Creator Himself, what praytell becomes of those "Rights" once God is forbidden His rightful place... or even any place... in our society or Government?
If the Christians in America, a nation founded by Christians upon the solid rock of the Word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, do not fight back with everything God has blessed us with, then we are giving victory to an evil which intends to consume us. We are allowing the immoral to dictate the terms to the moral, and that is then game, set, and match.
There is far more at stake here than whether Washington was a Deist, or whether one sentence from Jefferson's letter to some guy in Connecticut should be used to supersede and reinterpret our entire Constitution. These are not valid arguments, and The Library of Congress has extensive documentation available online which dispels any such deceit.
http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html
For this war to have gotten to the advanced stage where it now sits on our doorstep and snarls at us like the Hounds of Hell unleashed is the fault not of the minions of Satan who merely do the bidding of their vile master, rather it is the fault of every Christian in this once God-fearing nation who has sat idly by and hoped it would go away.
It is not going to go away. It is coming for us... in our homes, our schools, our places of work and our places of worship. It is time to take a stand and speak the Truth. Then speak It again. And again.
Inasmuch as this conflict, for the time being, remains a war of ideas and ideology, it is still possible to fight it just by speaking out, by letting the Holy Spirit within us move our hearts and tongues to take a vocal and unrelenting stand for what is right.
Whether our discourse in this matter offends some Muslims or Krishnas is not at issue. It is, in fact, a non-issue, and has no place in our deliberations. It is a diversion concocted by those who hate God.
The only issue here is whether our discourse offends God. We can pray that it lifts Him up in praise and glorifies Him, for that in the only way that we will succeed in our quest.
We must raise an outcry that reaches not only to the ACLU, not only to our schools, not only to the courts, not only to the Congress of the United States...
...but one which reaches straight to Heaven, for it is there, and there alone, where all hope for mankind—and America—lies.
May God give us His will, the strength to fight this good fight.
It has nothing to do with whether you agree with me. It has everything to do with what we are told by God in the Bible. It is available for reference (even online versions) for anyone who truly seeks answers.
Christianity teaches love and forgiveness, although Jesus was clear that the world was split in two categories, and that there was no middle ground.
We either believe in Jesus (and do God's bidding), or we do not. "You are either for me or against me..." It has nothing to do with whether you agree with me, and everything to do with whether you believe in the Salvation offered to you through the shed blood and broken body of Jesus Christ, the risen Savior... the Son of God crucified so that you might live free from slavery to Sin.
Taliban are Muslims. Muslim faith asks for its sons to die for Allah.
Christianity says that God's Son died for you.
That's the difference.
This was Christ's answer when the Sadducees and Pharisees tried to trick Him into saying something which could be considered treasonous to Roman Law.
What Christ meant is that men are exhorted by God to obey the Laws of their respective Government, and also to obey God's Law.
If my country's Laws state that I have a right to due process (and they do) then this is where the Bible covers that matter.
13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.
14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.
17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.
That's fine. Honest scholars understand that the desired separation is to prevent commingling of leadership or administration.
The current interpretation of separation is absolutist. Maybe you are one who believes in absolute rights: free speech beyond reason. For example, you may stand against Justice Clarence Thomas, and hold that burning a cross is protected speech. If you are an absolutist, then the current interpretation of separation of church and state probably makes sense to you.
It does not to me. It goes beyond all reason. It does so in a way that is damaging to the spirit.
One final thought. Of all the things that the state should keep its nose out of but doesn't, it burns me that civil libertarians have to get their pants in a bunch about harmless expressions of the origins of our law and culture that happen to be religious in nature.
1. Those political reasons had to do with the fact that Communism was on the march and it was looking pretty bad for those of us in the Free World. In fact, I don't think the word "political" covers it. It's not as if the Dems put it in their to show up the Republicans or vice versa.
2. If the courts take "under God" out of the Pledge, they won't be doing it to reset us back to the way things were prior to 1950, they will be doing it as a further effort to advance the idea that the government is allowed to establish religion-free zones. The object is to continue to pretend that having a secular government means having a government that pushes secularism on its citizens.
Gargantua didn't say that our rights are God-given. Sure, he (she?) typed it, but he was quoting others, and gave the proper attributions.
Gargantua pointed out that America's Founding Documents and Founding Fathers said this. As did the unanimous bodies of the joint Houses of the Congress of The United States of America in 1789, when they requested that President George Washington establish an official National Holy Day of prayerful thanks to God for giving us those Rights, and this Republic.
Second, you have taken two disparate replies from Gargantua and tried to combine them as though they were connected by something other than your snotty prattle.
Every Christian knows that God's exhortation that men obey the Laws of the land ends when those Laws contravert God's own Law. I know this, and I have no doubt that Gargantua does, too.
And now, you do as well.
The "policy change" which would occur is, I think, the opposite of what you mean. You seem to be asking "How would Government behave differently were God allowed His "rightful place?" Please correct me if I'm wrong.
What would actually occur is that, if America, a perviously and predominantly devoutly Christian Nation at the time of our Founding, were to return as a society to one which gave God His due, the change in this country would make it virtually unrecognizable from what we see here today.
People wouldn't need to protest abortions, because they wouldn't be Federally condoned or funded. The "need" for abortions due to rape would drop off the charts in a truly Christian and moral society. Abstinence would again replace birth control, and families would have two parents raising their children in the same household, bound tightly together by the solemn vow of man-woman marriage.
The social ills which plague us, and the resultant decay of our society would turn itself around as hearts are healed through a right-relationship with God.
This is the change that would occur if America, once again, acknowledged God's rightful place in our hearts, our lives, and our country.
President Thomas Jefferson said it well, when he said:
"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
Jefferson was right. Look around you, and see just how right he was.
Give it special status? hahaha. 99% of the citizens were Christian and 95% of the founders. It was a civil government based on judeo-Christian moral principles. No doubt about it. Separation of powers was necessary because too much power in the hands of a SINFUL ruler (sinfulness of man is a Christian doctrine) doesn't work. A Republic was necessary because direct democracy is also tyranny (sinfulness of the majority). In the 1970s a study was conducted that examined 15,000 writings from the 250 founders, and the source of those quotes were isolated. The men most quoted by the founders were all Christian philosophers - Locke, Montesquieu and Blackstone were the top 3. The most often quoted DIRECT source was the bible - 34% of all DIRECT quotes. Need a citation? Furthermore, in 1892, the Supreme Court declared in the Trinity vs. USA case that "this is a Christian nation" (not State) after a massive 10-year study of American history to that point. You are ignorant of history. ARgue with the Supreme Court. Deism never took hold in America. The U.S. govt was not a theocracy but the founders DEFINITELY put it under the sovereignty of God and that is made clear by the Decl. of Indep. (a very important founding document that outlines the principles behind the revolution) which clearly acknowledges that FACT that rights come from the Creator and cannot be taken away by any govt or man. I could go on and on. I am well-versed in American History - especially the forgotten and revised Christian history.
History records that Franklin's call to begin each session of the Convention with a prayer was seconded but never voted on or adopted. It was made at the end of a particularly contentious session. It's probable that he did not make it in earnest, but to divert attention from a rather acrimonious debate so that the session could end on a calmer note. He did such things several times during the Convention.
Why don't you research what deism meant in 1776. Deists then believed God wound up the clock and stepped back - no miracles, no providence, just a bystander. Read Franklin's speech - he said that God gave America the victory in the Revolution and cited at least 5 bible verses! Not bad for a deist!
Furthermore, Congress called for national day of fasting and prayer after the war, and Washington called for the first Thanksgiving. The first meeting of the Cont. Congress in 1774 was preceded by THREE HOURS of prayer! I could cite example after example of our founders' involvement and encouragement of the Christian religion. I can easily DESTROY with FACTS the entire phoney doctrine of Separation of Church and State as is being FORCED on Americans today. Care to take up the challenge of defending it?
Then why did Jefferson declare in 1816 that he was a Christian? He also did more to advance the Christian religion than almost any other president. He attended CHURCH services in the chambers of Congress and used the USMC band for worship (egad man! - call the separation police!), and was responsible for much pro-Christian legislation. You are right though, he was not an orthodox Christian (Christ was not God to him) and neither was Franklin (but one can't be sure about him especially at the end of his life). Paine was anti-Christian and suffered ostracization when he published his Age of Reason against Franklin's advice. He was pummelled for it publically, and his position dismantled by at least 5 major founders. Aside from these 3, I will add Ethan Allen, Aaron Burr, Henry Lee, Dearborn as not being Christians. That makes 7, and I will simply give you another 5 on top of that which brings the total to 12 non-Christians out of 250 founders. You will have an EXTREMELY difficult time making a case that more than 12 of 250 founders were NOT Christians. I challenge you to make such a case.
Deism did not take hold in America and it had no influence in the founding of our government.
Furthermore, in 1892, the Supreme Court declared in the Trinity vs. USA case that "this is a Christian nation" (not State) after a massive 10-year study of American history to that point. You are ignorant of history. ARgue with the Supreme Court.Argue with David Barton, the pre-eminent disseminator of that quote and, until he had to admit that he had inadvertently used other false quotes, the primary promulgator of the "Christian Nation" premise:
All of the attempts to claim that America was meant to be a "Christian Nation" trip over one basic point: except for the ambiguous matter of the date, there are no mentions of God, the Bible, Jesus Christ, or Christianity in the Constitution. It is said that Hamilton, asked about this, sarcastically replied "we forgot". Do you really think they did, with men like Luther Martin there to remind them? It would have been so easy to add such a reference to, for example, the Preamble, but none was. An accident?
The Declaration was a statement of "why", not a statement of "how". Try to claim, for example, that the Controlled Substances Act is not legitimate law under the "pursuit of happiness" clause of the Declaration. It won't fly.
Jefferson said that the First Amendment required separation of church and state. Madison, whose ideas of government were quite different, said the Constitution "strongly guarded" the separation of religion and government. It's clear that that was their intent.
-Eric
Of course, the fact that the entire Alabama Supreme Court and the Attorney General and numerous federal judges have repudiated Moore's positions just might have a little bearing on his credibility.
Then why did Jefferson declare in 1816 that he was a Christian?In 1803 he said:
"I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..."
If one reads between the lines, he is rejecting the divinity of Jesus Christ and claiming that Jesus never wished to be worshipped or regarded as divine. You yourself admit that he rejected Christ's divinity, if not, this quote would make it clear:
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a Virgin Mary, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away [with] all this artificial scaffolding.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823
I've already stated that most of the founders were professed Christians. It does not matter. It is quite possible to profess Christianity without believing that the government should practice and/or prefer Christianity. John Adams is a good example: no one doubts that he was a Christian, yet he signed and proclaimed the Treaty of Tripoli, which stated that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion". Are you doubting his Christianity? Or perhaps his sincerity?
For a more malevolent example of someone who professes Christianity yet does not believe in Christian government, one only need go back one Presidential administration.
-Eric
Chief Justice Roy Moore has stated this fact about the Decl. of Indep. many times on national TV. Of course, the fact that the entire Alabama Supreme Court and the Attorney General and numerous federal judges have repudiated Moore's positions just might have a little bearing on his credibility.I'd still like to like to see someone go before the US Supreme Court trying to invalidate a law based solely upon a clause in the Declaration of Independence. The ban on cameras should be lifted just once, to capture Justice Scalia's reactions. >:)
-Eric
The current interpretation of separation is absolutist. Maybe you are one who believes in absolute rights: free speech beyond reason. For example, you may stand against Justice Clarence Thomas, and hold that burning a cross is protected speech. If you are an absolutist, then the current interpretation of separation of church and state probably makes sense to you.There is no question that both speech and religious exercise may be limited in order to preserve order. For example, one may not break into a loud political diatribe during a council meeting, or excoriate the Pope as an agent of Satan in front of a Catholic church right before mass.
The Establishment clause forbids government from displaying religious preference, from extending to one faith or group of faiths privileges not granted to others. Therefore, a Christian child is free to bring to a Bible to class and read it during study hall, a Jewish child may bring his bar mitzvah studies, a Muslim may bring a Koran, a Wiccan may bring whatever they use, and a Satan worshipper may bring a copy of "Living History". None, however, may have their own given a special place or special perogatives by an agency of government, including a public school.
-Eric
One need only look at the president occupant of PA avenue to see that presidents no longer follow the U.S. Constitution. No one does! They have relegated it to a relic along with the Decl. of Indep.
But, that does not take away the fact that our founders put the United States under the sovereignty of God - no doubt about it. I recommend you get yourself a copy of "The Christian History of the Constitution of the United States, Vol. 1, by Verna M. Hall. After reading that, you will no longer doubt that the Constitution is a Christian document. It is not a secular document (secular means having nothing to do with God), but it is a CIVIL document imbued with Christian moral principles. No doubt about it. It is even signed "The Year of Our Lord" - that was no accident - every word in that document was CAREFULLY thought out. Who do you suppose they meant by Lord?
We agree on Jefferson except that he was not a deist since he followed Christ. And he was not even around during the framing of the Constitution.
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