Posted on 10/16/2003 7:34:12 AM PDT by Gargantua
As simply a spectator, I have observed wryly that to the dogmatic, no refutation is possible
Reality sucks, whether we believe it or not.
No one has said that - so what's the point?
Posted on 09/29/2003 10:16 AM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
With his new book, Persecution—How Liberals Are Waging War Against Christianity (published by Regnery, a HUMAN EVENTS sister company), David Limbaugh ventures into the lion’s den, challenging federal courts and other public institutions that have targeted Christians in America for unfair treatment.
Full of revealing, often infuriating, but must-be-told stories, Persecution exposes the anti-Christian agenda of the American left—and how it threatens American freedom. It destroys the myth that the Founding Fathers intended to build a wall of separation between church and state, and debunks the lie that the public schools are merely neutral bystanders in this cultural war. As Limbaugh makes clear, they are often explicitly anti-Christian.
Limbaugh, a graduate of the University of Missouri Law School who served on the Missouri Law Review, practices law in Cape Girardeau, Mo., where he lives with his wife, Lisa, and their four children. His first book, Absolute Power: The Legacy of Corruption in the Clinton-Reno Justice Department (Regnery) spent ten weeks on the New York Times bestseller list.
HUMAN EVENTS Editor Terence P. Jeffrey spoke with Limbaugh recently about some of the major themes in his book. This is an edited transcript of their conversation.
TERENCE P. JEFFREY: Persecution—How Liberals Are Waging War Against Christianity is an excellent book. You have done a lot of great research and brought up many things that most Americans perhaps don’t know, but ought to. One thing, for example, is the answer to the question of to Whom, precisely, George Washington prayed.
DAVID LIMBAUGH: Thanks for your kind words, Terry, and thanks for interviewing me in HUMAN EVENTS, one of my absolute favorite magazines.
I have commonly made the point in speeches, and now in the book, that secularists and separationists say that many of our Founding Fathers were not Christians but were Deists or Unitarians. While it is true that some high-profile Founders were not orthodox Christians, the overwhelming majority of them were. George Washington is one of those against whom they have leveled this charge. They say that because he used such general references to the Deity as "Supreme Being" or "Divine Providence" he wasn’t really a Christian. He didn’t invoke the name of Jesus. But, in fact, at the age of 20, Washington carried around with him a 24-page prayer book, written in his own hand, in which he had specific prayers for days of the week and almost every one was specifically addressed to Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross, and these prayers specifically affirmed almost all the theological doctrines of Christianity.
So, when you look at the prayers written in his own hand, they leave no question that George Washington was unequivocally a Christian. A Deist or Unitarian could not possibly have made those prayers.
JEFFREY: Yet, in the typical modern history book or commentary on George Washington, you will never read this very basic fact that the general who lead our military in the Revolutionary War, who presided over the Constitutional Convention, who was our first President, was a man who prayed daily to Jesus Christ.
LIMBAUGH: Exactly. The revisionist tendency is to sanitize references to Christianity from our history.
JEFFREY: Why is that? It seems as if there is almost a vast left-wing conspiracy to purge from our history things like the fact that Washington was a Christian.
LIMBAUGH: I think what is at stake here is the future of our freedom. Some secularists honestly believe that our freedom is grounded in secularist, moral relativist principles. Many others, not just Christians but non-revisionist historians, understand that our freedom was grounded in Christianity and Christian principles. There is a debate that is raging now over what those underlying principles were, and for the secularists to prevail they need to discredit the notion that our Founding Fathers were Christian and that they incorporated Christian principles into the Constitution. If they fail to do that, their argument that freedom is secularist in origin loses weight.
Their goal is to purge Christianity from the public square, and from influence in our political system. To succeed they must purge certain historical facts, which are indisputable.
JEFFREY: The constitutional questions follow from the historical questions, and I think you do an excellent job in your book in showing how the Christians who founded the United States of America, when they got together to write a Bill of Rights in the first Congress, did not exclude religion from our public life. We know what the liberals now say the 1st Amendment means—that it erects a wall of separation between church and state—but what does the 1st Amendment really mean?
LIMBAUGH: There are two religion clauses in the 1st Amendment: the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause. People tend to forget the Free Exercise Clause. My position is that both of those clauses are devoted to preserving religious liberty. But the so-called "separation of church and state" derives from a letter that Thomas Jefferson sent to the Danbury Baptists in Connecticut, which has been taken out of context.
JEFFREY: And Thomas Jefferson did not even attend the Constitutional Convention.
LIMBAUGH: He did not.
JEFFREY: Nor did he serve in the first Congress which wrote the 1st Amendment.
LIMBAUGH: That is correct.
JEFFREY: So, this letter is something that he wrote years later.
LIMBAUGH: Yes. So what the separationists argue is that the Establishment Clause—which says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"—means that there should be a separation of church and state. What it really meant historically, and what various judges said before the judiciary became politically indoctrinated, is that Congress shall not establish a national church such as the Church of England, and also that Congress shall not interfere with the states’ ability to establish an official church, or the existing established churches of the states. At the time of the Founding, there were anywhere from seven to nine established churches in the states. This is why they used the word "respecting" in the 1st Amendment. It meant Congress could not legislate one way or the other on the issue.
The whole purpose of prohibiting the federal government from establishing a religion was to preserve religious freedom, because if you had a federally mandated church, private individuals would not be able to pray as they wished.
Now, my argument is that through expansive interpretations of the Establishment Clause the Supreme Court has said not only that the 1st Amendment precludes any federal endorsement of religion but that it also precludes the states from doing it. They have incorporated the Establishment Clause into the laws of all 50 states through the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment. Suffice to say that through a legal fiction the Supreme Court has declared that the Establishment Clause prohibits states from endorsing religion.
JEFFREY: But that didn’t happen until after the ratification of the 14th Amendment.
LIMBAUGH: That is correct.
JEFFREY: So quite literally, up until the end of the Civil War, if Massachusetts had wanted to re-establish a state religion it could have, even as the Supreme Court interpreted the Constitution up to that time.
LIMBAUGH: That’s correct. It wasn’t until 1947, in Everson v. Board of Education, that the Supreme Court made the Establishment Clause applicable to the states. But, just to be absolutely clear, those of us who are arguing against discrimination against Christians are not saying that we advocate established religions. I am not in favor of that. I am just saying that if you are correctly interpreting the Constitution, it does not say that states are prohibited from establishing religion. Moreover, the Establishment Clause has been interpreted in a ridiculously expansive way not merely to prohibit Congress from establishing a religion but also to prohibit any entity with any inkling of federal funds from doing anything that would indicate a nod toward religion. And voluntary student Christian expression on school property is often barred because of misreadings of the clause.
JEFFREY: Except when the Supreme Court itself begins its session with the declaration, "God save this honorable court."
LIMBAUGH: Absolutely.
JEFFREY: Another interesting point you make is that this phenomenon is relatively recent. Fifty years ago, in public schools in this country, the schools could sponsor a prayer and nobody had a problem with it. What happened between then and now?
LIMBAUGH: The culture has been radically securalized. Along with that, moral relativism has taken hold. This very moral relativism that secularizes our culture also leads activist judges to interpret the Constitution according to their whim and, in effect, to legislate from the bench. The Supreme Court has been acting like a super-legislature for the last two or three generations, saying that the Constitution says what the majority of justices want it to mean rather than what the Framers originally intended.
JEFFREY: In your book, you explain that the schools in America at the time of the Founding and after had a very different purpose than the schools have today.
LIMBAUGH: It’s fascinating that so many of these issues about the endorsement of religion come up in the school context, because, ironically, the Framers never envisioned a completely state-funded school system. They could not have envisioned this kind of conflict.
Before the Founding, the first common schools were created for the explicit purpose of Christian instruction. The colonists established common schools for this purpose because they believed that being able to read the Bible was essential for salvation, so it was imperative to them that their children be taught to read and to read the Bible.
JEFFREY: Even after the ratification of the Constitution and the development of a public school system, we didn’t immediately discard the idea that the schools, even those run by the government, ought to be instilling values in children that more or less mirrored the values that their parents had and were necessary to good citizenship and a free society.
LIMBAUGH: Absolutely not. That brings up the fact that the secular humanists, starting in the middle 1800s, began to work against the Christian consensus in society and tried to remove the Christian influence from the schools. But you’re right, Christian principles were not initially excluded from the schools, in fact these principles were thought imperative for the discipline of the students and for good learning.
What the secularists now want to do is eradicate all things that could have any relationship to Christianity, such as the Ten Commandments, even though the Ten Commandments are universally acknowledged as both sectarian and secular principles that benefit all of society.
JEFFREY: I think one of the most compelling parts of your book is that you demonstrate that when the secular humanists drove these religiously-based values, and God and the Ten Commandments, out of our schools, they didn’t intend to leave vacuum. They intended to introduce something else as a substitute.
LIMBAUGH: That’s a driving theme in the book. My contention is that the secularists’ goal is not to promote religious freedom. They do not want to invoke the Establishment Clause to keep the government from endorsing religious values. While preventing any promotion at all of the Christian worldview, they hypocritically sanction the affirmative endorsement by the state of secular humanistic values. They actively promote values-laden education, but with values that are at war with Christianity.
JEFFREY: You specifically address, for example, what happens when you replace the traditional religious view of human sexuality with the modernist view of human sexuality that is taught in the sex-ed classes in America today.
LIMBAUGH: The radical homosexual movement is advocating the displacement of traditional sex education in favor of sex education that includes the affirmative promotion of the gay lifestyle, of safe sex, and the suppression of the abstinence message.
JEFFREY: Isn’t it true that with the religious message and God expelled from public schools today that in many public schools you have the school itself saying that sexual promiscuity and homosexual behavior are morally okay, and conversely that the traditional Christian view that these things are wrong is bad?
LIMBAUGH: Yes. It’s not just in schools, but also in the public sector. The popular cultural message is that if you morally disapprove of homosexuality you are engaging in hate speech. So, a lot of so-called anti-harassment policies have been enacted in schools, and elsewhere, to the point where you can’t utter the notion that homosexuality is sinful without being accused of hate speech. We now have, through a chilling effect, the promotion of the homosexual lifestyle as a norm rather than an aberration.
JEFFREY: It’s a form of moral terrorism. We saw it on the national level in the case of Republican Sen. Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania. When he spoke out about the Lawrence v. Texas case, which overturned Texas’s law prohibiting homosexual sodomy, he was brutally villainized by the liberal press. But what you are arguing is that that same basic phenomenon, the desire to chill and terrorize the person who stands up for the Christian view on homosexual behavior, is replicated all across American culture, including in our schools.
LIMBAUGH: In fact, especially in our schools. In California, which always leads the way on crazy ideas, the legislature has passed bills encouraging teachers to take tolerance courses and sensitivity training and to teach that homosexuality is normal and that it is abhorrent for students to have the moral conviction that homosexuality is wrong—that the student must be taught that it is wrong to even think judgmentally about the so-called lifestyle.
JEFFREY: So, here’s the frontline of the cultural war: You have Christian parents all across America who are trying to teach their children traditional Christian morality about various things, including homosexual behavior, and when they send those children into the public school, the school tries to teach them the exact opposite of what their parents are trying to teach them.
LIMBAUGH: You are hitting on something very important. What I argue in the book is that while I am not advocating that the public schools endorse Christianity—you and I might disagree on what kind of Christianity they should endorse if they did—what I am saying is that they shouldn’t allow the endorsement of opposing ideas, ideas antithetical to biblical Christianity. But you have the paradox here that when you remove the promotion of Christian values, you create a void, and that void is filled by other values. Then we see by design, and by inevitability, the sweeping in of secular values, which are at war with Christianity. So, somebody will ask: What is the solution? If you say that the government shouldn’t endorse Christianity, how can you prevent this?
JEFFREY: What about school choice?
LIMBAUGH: That is what I was going to say. I am not saying that we ought to get rid of public schools. What I am saying is that the government ought to surrender its monopoly on education, and let the school choice movement and the home school system flower. When that happens you’ll see one of two things. Either you will see the public education system implode, as it probably should, or you will see it having to compete and quit engaging in some of the nonsense it does now.
JEFFREY: As seen in the trashing of Sen. Santorum when he stood up in the Lawrence v. Texas case, it takes tremendous courage for prominent people in public life to stand up and address these issues candidly—and I commend you for your courage in writing this book. How can we buck up our political leadership so that they will have the courage to actually take this battle into the political arena?
LIMBAUGH: That’s a great question. I am not a pessimist by nature. But I am a little bit discouraged because I think that political correctness has taken hold of our entire society. We don’t have enough people willing to defend somebody like Sen. Santorum, because they, too, are afraid of being accused of homophobia, and that kind of thing. So, I think we need to work on ourselves before we work on the politicians. It is disturbing when the public and opinion leaders are afraid to support Santorum’s position for fear of being accused of homophobia. I think we need a grassroots effort. We need to go back to the basics, and embolden people to speak the truth—not in hate, but in love. Christianity is all about love, and it is not about hate speech, contrary to what they say.
JEFFREY: And I hope your book inspires a lot of people to do just that.
LIMBAUGH: Thank you very much.
This is the Liberal assault on Christianity which this post I made yesterday calls for Christians to address.
I truly never expected so many “conservatives” here on FreeRepublic to come out swinging so viciously against Christians, and to join the Liberals in their quest to remove any mention of God from American public life.
Some have used the excuse that their Liberal-sympathizer opinions are a result of their Catholic upbringing, and then accused me of bigotry for thanking them for that explanation.
I repeat my original plea: Is it not time for Christians…. all Christians… to rise up vocally against the Liberal outrage depicted in David Limbaugh’s book “Persecution”, and outlined briefly in my post here? The original FR thread is found here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/991576/posts
Actually, George Washington addressed that rather succinctly in his Thanksgiving Proclamation.
Washington,in his official capacity as President of the United States, established this Holiday (Holy Day) at the unanimous request of all members of the House and the Senate. This was an official act of the Founders' American Government, which some would have us believe desired a "separation" of Church and State... LOL
Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"
Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted' for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.
And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have show kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.
Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d dy of October, A.D. 1789.
(signed) G. Washington
America is busy deporting "GOD" as we speak, not illegal aliens... We have met the enemy and he's US... Americas house is on fire, half of us are setting them and half of us are putting them out... Americas political scene is like a 3 stooges movie... but its not very funny when you're inside the house..
Boiled down into modern day speak, this quote says:
"Since Federal Government has no place telling people what to think, I am glad that American's don't want their Federal Government creating any law which has to do with any religion."
The quote does not deign to prohibit religion from influencing Government, only the contrary... keeping the Federal Legislature out of religion.
Jefferson, as President, publicly endorsed three books as being essential to a good education. One of the three was The Bible. Can you name that quote?
Jefferson never endorsed preventing the mention of God in schools, he wanted The Bible to be among the curriculum... as did most of our founders as well as many great AMericans since:.
"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States.." "...Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency" From President George Washington's Inaugural Address, April 30th, 1789, addressed to both Houses of Congress.
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" President George Washington, September 17th, 1796
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." President George Washington
"...The Smiles of Heaven can never be expected On a Nation that disregards the eternal rules of Order and Right, which Heaven Itself Ordained." President George Washington
"I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid?" Benjamin Franklin
"Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin, 1787, Constitutional Convention
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."Noah Webster
"Whether this [new government] will prove a blessing or a curse will depend upon the use our people make of the blessings which a gracious God hath bestowed on us. If they are wise, they will be great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be miserable. Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation [Proverbs 14:34]. Reader! Whoever thou art, remember this, and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself and encourage it in others." Patrick Henry
"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed." Patrick Henry
"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." President Thomas Jefferson
"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." President Thomas Jefferson
"Of all systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson, To William Canby, 1813
"We have no government armed in power capable of contending in human passions ubridled by morality and religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." John Adams, address to the militia of Massachusetts, 1798.
"I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man..." President Thomas Jefferson
"The highest story of the American Revolution is this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." President John Adams
"Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land." James Madison
"We've staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us . . . to Govern ourselves according to the commandments of God. The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded." President James Madison
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay
"Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine....Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other." James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court
"Let the children...be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools." Benjamin Rush
"It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God." President John Quincy Adams
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity." President John Quincy Adams
"a true American Patriot must be a religious man...He who neglects his duty to his maker, may well be expected to be deficient and insincere in his duty towards the public" First Lady Abigail Adams
"The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests." President Andrew Jackson
If there is anything in my thoughts or style to commend, the credit is due to my parents for instilling in me an early love of the Scriptures. If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity." Daniel Webster
"It is extremely important to our nation , in a political as well as religious view , that all possible authority and influence should be given to the scriptures , for these furnish the best principles of civil liberty , and the most effectual support of republican government. The principles of all genuine liberty , and of wise laws and administrations are to be drawn from the Bible and sustained by it's authority.The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be accessory to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer...." Noah Webster
"The Bible must be considered as the great source of all the truth by which men are to be guided in government as well as in all social transactions...." Noah Webster
"The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws...." Noah Webster
"All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice , crime , ambition , injustice , oppression , slavery , and war , proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible...." Noah Webster
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and his apostles , which enjoins humility , piety and benevolence ; which acknowledges in every person a brother , or a sister , and a citizen with equal rights. This is genuine Christianity , and to this we owe our free constitutions of government...." Noah Webster
"It is the sincere desire of the writer (Noah Webster) that our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible , particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion." Noah Webster
"I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior (Jesus) of the world is communicated to us through this book. Abraham Lincoln
"Our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teaching of the Redeemer (Jesus Christ) of mankind. It is impossible that is should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian . . . this is a Christian nation." US Supreme Court, 1892
"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." President Harry S. Truman.
"History fails to record a single precedent in which nations subject to moral decay have not passed into political and economic decline. There has been either a spiritual awakening to overcome the moral lapse, or a progressive deterioration to ultimate national disaster" General Douglas MacArthur
Let's show them that we won't be dismissed just because they don't like our shining a spotlight into the darkness of their hearts.
;-/
No, I just don't want homosexualss and atheists using the Courts to tell me that I cannot freely practice my religion. My religion demands that I spread the Good News of God's Salvation through His Son Jesus to all men, that all shall have a chance at Salvation.
If I want to do that through public prayer, or public Nativity Scenes with Jesus in the manger at Christmastime, I have the right to do so.
If looking at it offends some atheists or homosexuals or Muslims, they can look the other way. I'm not making them look at it, I'm just giving them a chance to do so if they so wish... as my religion demands that I do.
I understand the reality, I was questioning whether believed that the reality was based in the constitution. The congress has the power, but has abrogated it to the judges, over which they have ultimate control, if they choose to use it. But it seems it is more useful to hide behind their actions, because they actually are in agreement with them.
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