Elizabeth Smart thread, August 24-31, 2002

[IamHD]

I don't know when Utahn children start school, but Elizabeth should/would be starting the 9th grade, soon. :(

[hergus]

"what I am trying to find out is was that search before Miranda G was taken?."

I was going to mention something else about that exact thing on the dog handler post, but I had to post and run out for a minute.

The same dog handler said that Ashely's mother had given them a piece of Ashley's clothing to use. When the dog's alerted at Weaver's yard the dog handler went to Weaver and asked him for permission to take the dog's in his property.

Weaver told them it was OK, but to not go near his newly poured concrete slab.

So.....it was after the concrete slab was poured. The dog handler also said something about expansion and contraction around the slab let out scents that the would make the dog's alert to human remains.

Also, LE had searched Weaver's shed with his permission before and found nothing.

What I'm wondering is if Ashley died first when she went missing in January why is she the one under the concrete that was poured a few days after Miranda went missing in March.

Where was Ashley or her body between Jan and Mar? Did he move her around like his dad did his female victim?

BTW his dad's crime was in 1985 and he moved his female victim around his yard with his wife's knowledge and the help of his son's. That would make his son, Ward Weaver III, in his early 20's at the time.

What I don't understand is if Weaver had given LE permission before to search is property how hard would it be to get a search warrant later? And why didn't they find anything?

I have to wonder if this case was neglected because of the socio-economic status of the mother's and their associations with murderers and child molester's.

They have not been on this case like they have the Smart case and that stinks, big time.

[andysandmikesmom]

I dont post much on these Elizabeth Smart threads, tho I do lurk each and every day....

Whenever a child goes missing the family and the circumstances of the childs disappearance, always seem to be fodder for us...the longer the case remains in the public eye, and the more exposure it gets, the more the family comes under scrutiny...not only the family, but the state were it occurs, the religion in general of the family, and on and on...

Some feel this is not fair, others feel that all circumstances are fair game...Whatever the family does or does not do, how they react or dont react, how they talk, whether they try to carry on with a normal life, or put normal life on hold is all scrutinzed...

It may seem unfair, but at heart, I do believe that most posters are just trying to get at the root of what exactly happened...

I live in Northwest Washington, just a little over a hundred miles from where the two Oregon teens were found murdered...it breaks my heart for the parents of these two lovely girls...Here in northwest Washington we have had our share of serial killers, and child abductions, and these cases break ones heart...

Another serial killer is due to go on trial soon, a killer who killed women in both eastern and western Washington, and the harm and damage he did to countless families was horrendous...he killed many young women, and left their families lives in disaster....

I only hope, against hope, that somewhere, somehow, Elizabeth will be found alive, and returned to her family...

I guess I have added really nothing concrete to the discussion, only wanted to let the more avid posters know, that there are many who lurk, without saying anything, and yet do greatly appreciate all the input shown on these threads...

[Bella]

LDS temples are for the faithful members of the LDS church to go to. In order to go to the temple, one must answer a set of questions in an interview with one's bishop and then one's stake president. The recommend itself is just a piece of paper with the date and signature of the bishop and stake president saying that one is worthy to go to the temple. It is shown at the front door of the temple.

What qualifies you to be faithful? How is this determined? Also, would you explain to me what it takes to qualify to be married in the temple, and what are the meetings before the ceremony?

[Bella]

Thank you for stating your thoughts and opinions. You are absolutely correct in stating that everything and everyone is scrutinized when such a tragedy occurs, as we have witnessed on many other cases. No one is above the law, and if they think they are, they're seriously mistaken. I'm certain many are familiar with "it all comes out in the wash."

[Sherlock]

The temple was the center of worship in Judaism. It was God's dwelling place, he dwelt 'between the cheribums' above the mercy seat. Blood was sprinkled on the altar once per year so that when God looked own on the tablets of the ten commandments representing his law which man breaks he would see it through the covering of the blood, which was a covering for sins. Since Jesus became the lamb of God, the sacrifice that not covered, but atoned for the sins of the world, the dwelling place of God is in the hearts of believers through his Spirit, that we believers, 'built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone, in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth into a holy Temple in the Lord, in whom you also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.' So what is the significance of a brick & mortar 'temple' where men determine which temples (ye are the temple of the living God) can go in?

[varina davis]

These were words crafted by FBI profilers.

Wrong.

[FR_addict]

Maybe Ed did figure out a while back that the FBI and local LE aren't up to the task.

I don't think so, he hasn't hired a private investigator and he keeps saying that he has full confidence in the police. I guess he is happy with their investigation. I know I wouldn't be.

[varina davis]

Here are a few quotes. I remember watching the Dinse press conference and thought at the time the admonition to the abductor sounded like a scolding, as if he was talking to a kid, not an adult.

Exactly, spore-gasm. Those quotes sound very heartfelt, not made up.

[Sherlock]

I have to wonder if this case was neglected because of the socio-economic status of the mother's and their associations with murderers and child molester's.

I think this is obvious and it's going to be interesting to see how LE squirms out of it because recognized members of the LE community are on cable news shows pointing to coverup. The woman handling the news conference today for the FBI appeared hand picked for this type of job but didn't look to me to be doing well today.

[varina davis]

Bella, here is another issue on which the LDS takes a firm stand and one that I applaud:

BY BOB MIMS, THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE

The LDS Church has weighed into the battle over an Alaskan initiative seeking to ban same-sex marriages in a big way, pouring $500,000 into a campaign to pass the state constitutional amendment.

The donation, confirmed Sunday by Mormon church spokesman Michael Otterson, dwarfed the $100,000 total raised for the Ballot Measure 2 initiative campaign by the Alaska Family Coalition (AFC).

"We're pretty bowled over," AFC spokeswoman Kristina Johannes told the Anchorage Daily News.

So was Allison Mendel, an attorney who co-chairs the opposition "No on No. 2" campaign.

"It's outrageous that a group based in Utah would flood our state with money to try to purchase a change in our constitution," she said.

"We're not supposed to have religious institutions dictating our civil law."

With 10 million members worldwide, more than half of them outside of the United States, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has become much more than merely a Utah faith, Mormon officials countered on Sunday.

"We have 24,000 members of the church based in Alaska. It's a matter that members of the church in Alaska and people who share their views about the importance of traditional marriage as an institution feel strongly about," church spokesman Michael Otterson said.

The LDS Church is not alone in declaring its support of the Alaskan measure. A letter issued by the state's Catholic bishop last month also backed the measure.

"The church has always reserved the right to speak out on moral issues," Otterson said. "You don't become disenfranchised in our democratic process just because you happen to represent a religious viewpoint."

He said the church's contribution would go toward broadcast and print advertising to urge Alaskans on Nov. 3 to support a ban on same-sex unions.

The Alaska initiative was sparked by a judge's refusal last February to dismiss a lawsuit by two Anchorage men challenging the state's standing law against same-sex marriages.

A 1993 Hawaii Supreme Court decision opening the door to same-sex unions also attracted open LDS Church opposition.

Twenty-six states, including Utah, have laws banning same-sex marriages.

tah's law, passed by the Legislature in 1995, also states it is not obligated to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states.

itionally, a federal bill, which became law in 1996, withheld tax, pension, health and other benefits from gay spouses.

t Lake Tribune, October 5, 1998 Hinckley Condemns Plural Marriage, Speaks on Homosexuality and Abortion (excerpt) BY BOB MIMS AND PEGGY FLETCHER STACK, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE

Church President Gordon B. Hinckley on Sunday reminded the Mormon faithful where they should stand on issues ranging from polygamy -- which he unyieldingly condemned -- to gay rights and abortion.

[Utah Girl]

There are a set of questions that are asked in the interviews with the Bishop and the Stake President. We must show our faith and testimony of Jesus Christ and God by living the gospel and keeping the commandments. We must live the Word of Wisdom, be morally clean, pay a full tithing, keep the Sabbath day holy, sustain and uphold the prophet and apostles, attend my Sunday meetings, am I honest in my dealings with my fellow-man?; do I affiliate with any group whose teachings are contrary to those of the LDS church? (Those are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.) Oh, if I have been through the temple, am I keeping the convenants I made there? Do I feel I am worthy for a temple recommend?

To be married in the temple, see above. Engaged couples meet with their bishop once a week until they are married, all couples are strongly urged to take a marriage preparation class at their local LDS institute (local college campuses almost always have one.) One must also get a marriage license applicable to the state or country one is residing in, and also make sure that the laws are complied with according to age (get consent where necessary), length of time between getting the marriage license and the marriage, etc.

We must also arrange to have two witnesses at the wedding/sealing ceremony in the temple (usually the father of the bride and the father of the groom). You must get a new temple recommend for the marriage. On the recommend is noted your baptismal date and that it is a recommed for a wedding. One must have been a member of the LDS church for a year.

If either the bride or groom has not received their endowments, then they must have those before they are married. That can be planned for the day of the wedding ceremony, or a week before. If the groom (and bride) have served LDS missions, then they already have their endowments, so the wedding ceremony would just take place. And before one goes to the temple, wards and/or stakes have temple preparation classes.

[Sherlock]

do I affiliate with any group whose teachings are contrary to those of the LDS church?

Freepers

[hergus]

Just what I need, an attorney, ;-)
What does this statement mean as far as the search warrants on Weaver's house?

And why could they get warrants for Ricci's house, his car's, his father-in-law's house so easily with no more evidence than they had in Weaver's case?

Is this different in each jurisdiction? Do they get their warrants on the whim of the local judge and nothing else?

"FBI Seeks More Clues in Ore. Case Aug. 26, 2002
AP
{snip}
"Authorities have said that they have moved as fast as they could to investigate Weaver, given constitutional limits on searches."
{snip}

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=533&e=1&cid=533&u=/ap/20020826/ap_on_re_us/missing_girls_47

[Bella]

These were words crafted by FBI profilers. When she said these things she also made other statements aimed at other potential catagories of suspects, part of a shotgun approach to cover all the bases.

No they weren't..Aimed at potential suspects?--Who told you that?? Everyone who heard and read her comments knew she spoke to "someone specific" to get her message through in hopes of returning Elizabeth.

[Bella]

I've been reading many other news articles and boards with many discussions regarding this..

[Bella]

I have a few questions regarding the temple and marriages from reading other boards that I will ask you about that I found strange, but will ask these now, and will get back with you later this evening.

1--Why would someone's parents not be allowed in the temple to witness their child's wedding?

2--How long is a marriage ceremony, and how many couples wed on the same day? Do they do wedding after wedding in one day?

[Utah Girl]

The LDS church also took the same stance in California on their same sex proprosition came to a vote a couple of years ago.

[Sherlock]

Everyone who heard and read her comments knew she spoke to "someone specific" to get her message through in hopes of returning Elizabeth.

If they had known who took her don't you think they would have retrieved her Bella?

[Utah Girl]

In order to go to the temple, one must be a member of the LDS church and worthy to go. I know there is a lot of discussion out there that parents aren't allowed to see their only daughters get married in the temple, etc. My sister's husband's family is not LDS, and we were in that same situation. I do think the matter needs to be handled with a good deal of prayer. My parents met with his parents, and they talked about the fact that they couldn't be at the temple marriage ceremony, my dad explained about the temple, the covenants my sister and their son would be making, and why. Also that is a commandment from God, and we are following his commandments. At that time, I hadn't gone to the temple either, so I spent the time with them during the wedding ceremony in a waiting room in the temple. They had many questions, and I was able to answer them. The day turned out to be very nice. Last month when my sister and her husband and kids went to visit them, my brother-in-law's father pulled him aside and told him how happy he was that Steve is a member of the LDS church, and that he had married my sister in accordance with its teachings. He could see the happiness in his son's life.

And I do know of a couple of instances where the statement was made "Well, you are not worthy to go to the temple to see your daughter married" and the attitude was rubbed in by this particular person. It created tension between him and his in-laws that has never been resolved.

My father has been a bishop a couple of times, and has dealt with the issue of parents not being able to go to the temple or other members of the family. He says that if the subject is approached in prayer and in love, that the parents do understand.

As far as the ceremony goes, about 20 minutes, average time, I would guess. Depending upon the temple and time of the year, yes, there can be a lot of ceremonies on the same day. How many, I don't know. But the temple workers make the day special for each bride and groom, there is no rush through the temple, nor looking at watches, etc. My parents have jokingly told us that none of us should plan to get married on Valentine's Day (my brother did) or just before Christmas (like my sister did.)

[hergus]

Head's Up...
6:14 pm EDT

Ed Smart coming on now on MSNBC with Dan Abrams.