Posted on 09/26/2026 12:05:39 PM PDT by rlmorel
I am a graphically minded person, and have struggled with a way to effectively portray the reality of our political system in America, and none of the graphic descriptions I see describe it the way I see it. I have given this much thought over the years, and I have always found this particular question puzzling: why would they have ever given us this model shown below?
The only way this graph above (which is the traditional one accepted by the vast majority of Americans) makes any sense is if it were created and pushed by people who were either Communists or Fascists.
As I have said, it is a well known fact that Communists and Fascists have always presented themselves as arch enemies to the other side. As both Hitler and Stalin would have told their populations in WWII, the OTHER side is the epitome of evil, and we are NOTHING like them.
But, it was also known by thinking people in both the Reich and the USSR that the "other" side was a fertile ground for recruitment. Soviets could pick off Nazis and convert them, and vice versa.
They would have subscribed to this graph above placing the two ideologies at polar opposites and putting the gray scale in between. But those who understood things more rationally and not propagandistically understood that Communism and Fascism were really adjacent to each other.
And that makes total sense when you look at everything about those two ideologies. After all, they both had the word "Socialist" embedded in their identities. Both Lenin and Stalin acknowledged that Socialism is simply a temporary stepping stone on the way to Communism (and by extension, Fascism.
So, in light of that, we can then look at why this particular graph is pushed so heavily in the United States and taught in schools from grade school up to the people getting college degrees in political science, as well as the media and even the political parties themselves. Why, indeed?
There are a lot of people (on and off this forum) who believe there is no difference between the Democrat Party and the Republican Party. I think that is absurd, although at some level, particularly with Deep State entities, they are VERY similar. But that is not ideology, that is mostly due to greed. Deep State entities want to preserve the status quo because they don't want to upset the gravy train. They want the "spice to keep flowing" ("Dune" reference there...)
I am not arguing with myself although one could be forgiven for thinking so. "So, if they are not exactly alike then, rlmorel, then then Democrats and Republicans WOULD be at opposite ends of that spectrum, and you are arguing with yourself?"
I believe that spectrum showing Communists as far Left and Republicans (which in many cases, Republican is a proxy for Conservatives, but not always) on the far right is pushed for a very specific reason, as a shorthand for describing American politics.This graph below (from the Internet as well) does a better job of describing the political spectrum but in my opinion, still falls short:
Conservatives, and the MAGA Republican Party are not Fascist. And we aren't "Far Right" at our extreme. MAGA Conservatism is, when using the Constitution as a center of the spectrum (with total government on one side, and no government on the other side) the center ideologically, assuming the Constitution is the reference point , and our spread is out a little to both the Left and the Right in both directions.
So, I believe it looks like this:
I had difficulty trying to place it on the spectrum. I fully concede I have a dim view of Libertarianism. I don't believe there is anything Conservative about Libertarianism, except that tendency towards smaller, less intrusive government, so in that respect, I believe there is overlap there towards smaller government, but even that overlap ends.
Once a Conservative proceeds closer and closer to no government, they stop being a Conservative. Conservatives are not anti-government. We believe in limited government, limited to Constitutionally delineated functions, and in the progression towards no government, that overlap between Conservatives and Libertarians ends.
I also wanted to take into account the Deep State, but I understand that while it CAN be a functionality of ideology, it is just as likely (or more likely) to have as its driving forces both greed and a rejection of change.
I ended up completely enclosing ALL Democrats and Left Leaning Republicans in the Deep State.
I included ALL Democrats because in this polarized environment, there is a collective group-think in the Democrat party with little to no overlap with Republicans. They think in a hive-mind, and they vote as a collective. Because they are as a foundational premise, collectivists.
And I included Left leaning Republicans in the Deep State simply due to the fact that it is in relation to the guidelines of the US Constitution, and non-MAGA Republicans who are progressing to the Left work in coordination with various factions of the Left to produce the same result...a drift away from the Constitution and more to larger government...for their own purposes.
And in both cases Leftists and Left Leaning Republicans largely share the characteristic of "greed"-not wanting the "gravy train" to stop, and thus resisting changes to the status quo which can impede the financial gains possible in a corrupt money-intensive state.
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I fully get that I could be wrong on various factors I used to create this. I created this as a formal starting point.
I would like to open a civil and rational discussion on this, with the goal of seeing how I might be in error and possibly refining this spectrum to even closer fit current reality.
If I am in error, please correct me, and try to refrain from attacking me. What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me, or vice versa.
Thoughts on this spectrum?
Your post on another thread really got me to thinking on this, and I thought you both might be interested enough to weigh in.
That is way way wrong. NOw Libertarians are left of the GOP on many issues. The commies have infiltrated them.
The red part that crosses over to the left must be RINO land. Notice the blue doesn’t cross over to the right.
The things they are in league with the Left on are less government issues and more personal issues, in my opinion.
Drug use is just one example. Sexual mores are another. On both of those, I agree, Libertarians deviate from alignment with Conservatism and align with Leftists.
But the one “unifying” characteristic if you ask nearly any Libertarian, the first thing out of their mouth is “Less or no government in my life”. That was why I put them to the end of no government, with some overlap with Conservatives who believe in smaller, non-bloated government that departs from the guidelines of the Constitution.
But you were right to point it out-you can see I had difficulty placing them.
Yes-that is because I deliberately placed the reference point of the US Constitution at dead center. All Democrats want to be “Cafeteria Constitutionalists”. Even squishy Democrats who lean towards the center believe that they should ignore the Constitution if they disagree with some part of it.
A good example is the 2nd Amendment. Most Conservatives look at the overwhelming levels of murder and mayhem inflicted on society by Leftists, but...we grudgingly and painfully admit that we can’t deny Leftists their 2nd Amendment rights, because then...we are deviating from the Constitution ourselves.
We sometimes hate it that we can’t deny them the right to own weapons, but..them’s the rules. Darn it.
If you really want a graphic visualization, maybe you need something like a color wheel instead of a line.
There are thousands of "issues" out there. For each issue, there is often a spectrum, not a binary, range of opinions.
E.g., believe it or not, you could probably find both someone who is generally a democrat, republican, fascist, communist, or libertarian who is against abortion, and another for it.
So even a color wheel may not suffice. It's a multi-dimensional problem so you'll need to brush up on linear algebra and matrices.
Well done. I agree. I was considering where to put strict, originalist Constitution—probably to the right of the deep state box.
Unelected officials with power are not Constitutional.
A big part of the Deep State is the MIC.
That is a good graphic overall and I will save it for handy reference...the problem with Libertarianism is, in my opinion, that they want to take ANY or ALL of those categories and pick what they want out of them...which to me, approaches anarchy, or no government or rules.
That is my experience with them.
If you were to make a third column, the stances while generally consistent for Democrats and what they want, and Republicans for what they want, and if viewed in a binary form (to provide contrast) there would be absolutely no consistency, and thus, in my mind, unworkable.
I admit to not having much respect for Libertarians for that reason. I know a lot of Conservatives who have a Libertarian bent to them, but for the most part, again, that is towards smaller government.
Good vanity.
I would only point out that your thinking is two-dimensional, not three. In reality, concepts appear to be circular. Nature (God) is not wasteful. Concepts, which appear to have extremes, as in a spectrum, are circular, in fact. The most ardent Leftist and the most ardent Rightest share the same worldview.
Man is a complex animal. He must exist both as an individual and as part of a collective.
Actually, this is no surprise, at all, as this allows for his dominance. Who can survive against a species that is master of both?
LOL! You are absolutely right as many humans are less binary on many things and more gray-scale on many others-but at the bottom of it, there may simply BE no “perfect” answer.
I did struggle a bit.
And that is where we fall off this path. To me, the issue of Transgenderism is an example of something in which God is right and anyone who pushes the concept you could be "born into the wrong body" is...flat out wrong. God is never wrong. Your soul was put into that body by God. And God had a very specific purpose and reason for doing that.
"...Actually, this is no surprise, at all, as this allows for his dominance. Who can survive against a species that is master of both?..."
To this I say, our own life, our own liberty, and our own pursuit of happiness are our unalienable rights given to us by God. and Collectivists seek to remove my life, my liberty, and my pursuit of happiness to reach their goals.
In the case of the collectivists like Mao and Stalin, they took as a form of political action the individual Lives of hundreds of millions of people who did not conform to their collective goals, such as the Kulaks that Stalin starved to death, or the tens or hundreds of millions that Mao murdered as part of his Great Leap Forward.
The collectivists also want you to sacrifice YOUR individual Liberty to their goals. Don't drive cars, take busses. Don't work in this profession. Work in the profession the collective needs from you. Don't eat meat, it is wasteful to the collective. Eat bugs instead for protein. For the good of the collective.
And to the collectivists, your individual pursuit of happiness is completely subordinated by the happiness of the collective.
So in all those things...if we take them as God-Given, then Conservatives are more "Right" and Leftists (Collectivists) are more "wrong" overall.
Good points...good discussion.
That was why I put that reference to the Constitution at dead center, because we are a Constitutional Republic.
In my opinion, you either believe in the guidelines of the US Constitution, all of them, or you don’t.
The more one deviates from the Dead Center (full Constitutional acceptance) and begins to move to the Left for your own reasons, you reach a point where you are no longer a “Capital-C” Conservative, but are instead becoming a Democrat or Leftist.
Bottom line-you cannot be a “Deep Stater” and be to the right of the Constitutional Center. In my opinion, being a “Deep Stater” prohibits you from being able to claim that.
Ah. Sorry. You said “more to the center” not “over” the center. Got it. You may be right there...even up the point of being just barely to the left of dead center Constitutionality.
Michael Pence, George Bushes, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Lindsay Graham.
To many those are a gallery of rogues...
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