Posted on 06/30/2024 3:59:01 PM PDT by scouter
It is important that we all understand how the 25th Amendment works. To this end, please read it. It is pretty easy to understand, but there are some subtleties that are not so obvious. Also, it is not bullet proof. Here's the text: https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/amendment-25/
This thread is to discuss the 25th Amendment, and how it might be invoked and operate both in theory, and in the present circumstances. Please refrain from snarky remarks about President Biden's and Kamala Harris' respective mental abilities, unless it's truly funny in a way we haven't seen before. Not that they aren't warranted. It's just that I'd like to keep this thread focused on how things really work so that we all might learn something and be able to correctly inform our families and friends in the discussions that are likely to occur over the next several months.
To get the discussion going, I'd like to point out several subtleties that are not immediately obvious.
1. If there is currently no Vice President, then Section 4, the Section that addresses a Vice President and the cabinet removing the President's powers and duties, cannot be invoked. It is off the table completely.
2. It is not explicitly stated whether or not the Vice President continues to have the powers and duties of the Vice President while serving as Acting President. For example, it is not clear whether or not the Vice President can cast deciding votes in the Senate, or actively preside over the Senate while serving as Acting President.
3. The 25th Amendment does not "remove" the President. The President continues to be President, and the Vice President continues to be Vice President.
4. When the Vice President is serving as Acting President, he cannot appoint a new Vice President.
5. It is not clear at all what would happen if, while serving as Acting President, the Vice President were to die or resign, or himself become otherwise incapable of carrying out the powers and duties of the Presidency. Because in this situation the President is still alive, the Speaker of the House would NOT become President, and there is nothing to indicate that he would become Vice President or Acting President.
6. Section 4 indicates that the Vice President and "a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide" may invoke the 25th Amendment. The "principle officers of the executive departments" is the Cabinet. Congress has never by law provided for any other body to have these powers. Theoretically it could could be either house of the Congress, or both houses together. Congress has extremely wide latitude to decide which other body this could be, but they have not done so. It would require a law to be passed in the same manner as all other laws. So for now, at least, it would be the Vice President and the Cabinet.
7. The Amendment provides for the case where the President disagrees with the Vice President and the Cabinet. He can reclaim the powers and duties of his office by simply writing a letter to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives indicating that he is indeed capable of discharging his responsibilities. Once he does, he is back in the driver's seat. There is some disagreement on this point, where some scholars believe that he does not immediately resume his powers and duties, but rather, four days must pass to give the Vice President and Cabinet time to send another letter to the Congress removing his powers and duties. The wording is a bit ambiguous.
8. It could get really nasty. If the Vice President and Cabinet are really at odds with the President on this question, the President could re-claim the powers and duties, and the Vice President and cabinet could take them away again, and then Congress would have to decide by a 2/3 vote. If Congress does not ratify the Vice President and Cabinet's decision within 21 (or 23 calendar days, depending on whether or not Congress is in session), then the President resumes his powers and duties. However, the Vice President and Cabinet could start the whole process over and over again. Of course, if they did, once the President resumed his duties, he could fire the Cabinet and bring in more loyal Cabinet members.
Discuss.
That’s hysterical. It could be part of his nighttime routine. LOL
Do you think North Korea, China, and Russia are having internal discussions about what to do in the next 7 months?
It was ambiguous because it was designed as a Cold War era mechanism to be employed in the event of an Armageddon-like scenario where the President is missing in action and nobody could even confirm if he is alive.
I think that was intentional. It should be a high bar. But they only get involved if the President challenges it AND the VP and Cabinet insist again that he can’t do the job.
See my prior post. The 25th Amendment was adopted almost 50 years after Wilson left office.
See Post #23. If the President contests a challenge to his authority under the 25th Amendment, then he basically eliminates the challenge by saying: “Hey, I’m alive!”
I respectfully disagree. They considered all sorts of situations in which they thought it would ba appropriate for the VP and Cabinet to invoke it. Kidnapping, treason, drug abuse, psychosis, even laziness and dereliction of duty. Of course, this would likely end up being decided by Congress.
I’m sure they are. That’s why I think they should invoke it.
That was one of the scenarios but there were plenty of others.
Yes, but if the VP and Cabinet send another letter to Congress saying he isn’t able to do the job then Congress decides.
“he basically eliminates the challenge by saying: “Hey, I’m alive!””
The fun starts if the President says “Hey, I’m alive—no thanks to the WH doctors who tried to kill me. I saw their eyes turn into reptilian eyes. We must fight this reptilian invasion with all of our forces. The place I am going to start is with you, Madame Vice President. You are fired.”
The framers of the amendment did not cover every contingency.
:-)
Silence speaks volumes in the Constitution. If no mention then no right to vote. It clearly states:
“If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.”
Ford did not pic a new VP based upon the precedent set by Truman following the death of FDR. I believe as acting president he could have though.
Not "Rosebud"?
I have a better idea. They could take Joe for a car ride far out into the country on a seldom-travelled road and leave him miles away from the nearest human being.
Ford did pick a VP. It was Nelson Rockefeller.
When the VP is serving as Acting President he is still VP, and the Amendment continues to refer to him as such. Because he is still VP, the office of Vice President is not vacant. Therefore no VP can be appointed. Think about it… if serving as Acting President meant he was no longer VP, then when the President resumed his duties the VP would be out of a job.
China isn’t having talks. See China/Philippines today.
the problem with Kamala becoming acting president under the 25th is, the black vote come November. Recall 2019 - black men were put off with her background as a prosecutor and black women didn’t identify with Kamala as being part of ‘the struggle’ - Corey Booker consistently polled higher. Hillary by contrast, could lean on Bill’s popularity with the black voter and Biden could lean on Obama’s record. Bringing into question - Would Kamala’s role as Acting President become a dead-end, an exercise in futility; is she a viable candidate at all? Is the only game Dems have left is to maintain the statusquo, let Biden lose, bank the presidential election fund, and then revive the ‘stolen election’ memes of 2016?
Let's also not forget one detail: The President does NOT appoint a VP in the way a Governor can appoint someone to fill a vacancy in the Senate.
The President NOMINATES and a majority of both chambers of Congress must confirm the new Vice President.
-PJ
I am thinking strategizing within China. One could add Iran to the list.
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