And at what point do we say no, that is murder to kill a human life?
Or do we leave it as ready option for the AOC's of the world that want their recreational sex without consequences?
Do we have a community standard, law, whatever, or simply wash our hands of it because it is inconvenient, maybe conflicts with our personal, family, or political goals?
Roe v. Wade reversed course on the topic but did not settle it. The federal government still funds killing after conception--embryos for research, abortion mostly by choice.
I personally think that life begins at conception. Thus, killing embryos is wrong, or research or by choice. Abortion is wrong. Since it is life, human life, it is murder.
We tried IVF, no embryos were disgarded or kill. Ultimately, our boys were conceived the old-fashioned way. As Catholics we agonized over IVF, later, we agreed to disagree on the what-if baby vs. life of the mother. Luckily we never faced that choice.
With Roe v. Wade reversed, we've got states setting when it is okay to kill a human life--at heartbeat or up to birth or thereafter. Now, Alabama forces the bigger question, does life begin at conception and do we protect life at conception?
The federal government needs to set national standards, decide what federal funds can and cannot be used to kill human life at or after conception.
Yes, let states set their own within those national standards.
Thus, our national leaders need to lead, help set those standards, be honest and consistent.
Feeding that, what do we believe, what do we expect? For me, life starts at conception and no federal sanction of funding should be spent to kill human life thereafter.
What do you think? Do you think this is just inconvenient because it conflicts with AOC's recreational sex? Is it inconvenient because we might be a minority and thus lose elections?
Did you mean to write “when does life begin?”
The real point is whether the destruction of human life from IVF is any different than the murder of a born person. Since science now unequivocally tells us that at conception, it is a human being. That should be the starting point for any consideration of this question, not the aftermath.
As I said in another thread on this topic, when we speak of human zygotes, embryos, fetuses, babies, children, teenagers, adults, middle-aged, and old age, these are all simply descriptions of the various stages of human development. Some occur on one side of the birth canal, others on the other side. Some may be imperfect or unwanted by their parents or by society. But all are living human beings. All have an equal human dignity. None should unjustly be deprived of life.
So where do we draw the line at the taking of an innocent human life? What difference does location or stage of human development make? If we lower ourselves to countenance taking the life one category of people for our own convenience and satisfaction, who is next?
Science clearly shows that a unique, individual human life begins at conception.
Well...
What does God have to say about?
That’s the only opinion or truth that matters anyways.
JEREMIAH 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
PSALM 139:13 - 16
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
JOB 10:8-9
Your hands fashioned and made me, and now you have destroyed me altogether. 9 Remember that you have made me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?
ISAIAH 49:1
Listen to me, O coastlands, and give attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name.
On another thread yesterday , I was told that the proper Christian view is that we should be against the operation of IVF clinics.
Yet some Christians are in favor of IVF clinics. They see IVF as a way for people to have children who would otherwise not be able to have children.
Where do we draw lines on all of this , that’s always been the question.
What you are asking is "when does that human life become a person with rights"?
And that is an issue we have been arguing about for a very long time. Mostly because we have a deep ingrained desire to murder and we would like to know who we can murder without getting into trouble. This concept bothers a lot of people but it is once again the only logical conclusion for this argument.
We started with the idea that it was ok to murder those who were not of our tribe because they were not people. That is why if you trace the meaning of names of tribes it ends up being "The People", "The Real People", "The Real Humans" and so forth. The People have rights and you may not murder them without cause. The rest of the world are "not People" and so you can kill them, steal from them, rape them, mutilate and enslave them. It's ok. They are not people.
But we ran into Christianity. And the basis of civil Christianity is "we are all people". It took a long time but that idea finally sunk into the world conscience. We are all people. No matter what we look like. People.
But what about those we can not see? And that is where the argument starts again. Because we can not see babies before they are born it is easy to say they are not really people. After all some of them will die before we see them so that makes them "not People" and it is perfectly ok to murder them.
Except logically it does not. Just because you do not see someone does not mean they are not people. There are entire groups of humans out there that we will never see. And they will die with out us ever seeing them. And they are still people.
I believe life begins the very microsecond you are conceived.
To know when life begins we might look at when life ends, when the heart stops beating.
First, scripture understood in the correct context should be viewed as .. “Thou shall not Murder!”
As a Christian I take the side of God, not man!
As written by David in the book of Psalms ..
“Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all its parts were down in writing.”
Psalm 139:16.
David does not simply say “an embryo” but “the embryo of ME” revealing that David’s life began when he was conceived, long before his birth.
Under inspiration by God, David also revealed that at conception the development of his body parts was according to a plan, or detailed ‘written’ instructions, which made him the person he was.
As a Christian, the choice is clear.🤔
It’s in the bible:
Live begins where Memorex ends.
“When does life begin? I think most agree that eggs and sperm individually by themseves is not life.”
No, sperm and eggs are alive. But, by themselves, they are not persons.
When we say “life begins at conception” we are talking about the unique life of an individual human being.
Sure, implantation (in the uterus wall), the development of brainwaves, heartbeats, and the ability to feel pain are significant developments in the womb.
At conception, there is a spark of electricity and a flash of light. Unique DNA is formed. The embryo, from conception, contains the full DNA, 23 pairs of chromosomes, of a living human being.
“Once viable?”
Viability is the most nebulous of criteria.
Is a one-year-old baby “viable”?
Not without assistance.
If you drop off a random adult on a deserted island, there’s about a 99.999 percent chance they will die. We’re not so “viable” ourselves.
Is COVID-19 a “living” virus even though Anthony Fauci has patents on it?
The question of human life should have been asked and answered before IVF was ever even attempted. If unanswerable, it should have been treated as though human life were involved.
Modern “science” is very disappointing. I believe it has rejected God for no reason, at all.
Jeremiah 1:5 NASBS
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
When does life begin?
I am very against abortion. However, that is a hard question to answer, especially via legislation. Although, I view partial birth abortion as clearly murder, no matter what a legislature says.
I do like the way the original Roe V Wade decision said that the state has an interest in the unborn and that interest grows the closer the unborn comes to being born.
A life form which is alive and has human DNA is a human being.
So human life begins when DNA from the sperm and egg unite.
There is “life,” and there is “a human being.”
They are not the same.
There is the religious angle, and the legal angle. Individual decisions can be made on whatever angles the individual wants. But legal issues are settled differently.
Someone using their (not mine) religious position to force a law on the rest of us is not only incredibly hubristic, it’s a great way to motivate the other, majority, side, into tossing his candidates the heck out of office.
As will happen.
Each state sets their standard for the second question:
“When does a (insert your favorite term) become a human being, with all rights as given by the Constitution and/or States?”
Although so many of the louder voices make it a religious question (and answer), under our Constitutional form of government, religion has very little to do with this LEGAL issue. Other than individuals voting their conscience when presented with the opportunity.
And now one State, Alabama, has set their (temporary) standard with one guy quoting from his religion.
Glad I don’t live there.
Here in Florida, the Governor and Legislature overplayed their hands on this. Outlawed abortion after 6 weeks, when many women don’t even know they’re pregnant.
And now there is a major push to ammend our Constitution to basically forbid ANY law on abortion. And enough signed the petition to get it on the upcoming ballot.
And it will pass, and drive tremendous turnout from dems, Independents, and many Rs who will vote for it. And that turnout will toss some R’s from office.
The tail wagging the dog.
Because it’s a legal question, and most people are tired of the nuts on both sides.
I believe that human "conception" actually only considers to have taken place when the morula (abt 8 cells) attaches to the uterus wall and begins differentiating.
At what stage is the fertilized ovum implanted into a surrogate host "mother"?
(written without reading much further than the title)
Q.: When did Adam's fully formed corpus actually come to life?
A.: When Jehovah Elohim "breathed" spirit into the biomass.
Until then, although perhaps even biologically functioning, was still not spiritually "alive," eh?
And at point does a dying human finally stop "living," hm?
Perhaps never, if the LORD has His way. OSAS.