Posted on 12/07/2023 7:34:19 PM PST by Pelham
"On this, the 82nd anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Sal Mercogliano - maritime historian at Campbell University (@campbelledu) and former merchant mariner - joins the US Naval History Podcast to discuss the Third Wave at Pearl Harbor, Fuel Logistics in World War Two, and the issues surrounding the closing of Red Hill today in a potential war against China."
Gotta JUST LOVE how our masters in DC spend years demilitarizing the US, just to do just about everything possible to get into wars with Russia and China.
I’ll listen to this, but from all I know, if the Japanese had launched the third wave and hit the fuel storage and/or ship repair facilities, we would have had to withdraw our forces to the West Coast.
A subsequent landing force could have occupied Oahu. West coast cities could have been subject to shelling to terrorize the population. We still would have beaten them, but it could have taken years longer. And what if the additional effort needed to recover and fight back had caused a lessening of the effort we put into the “Germany first” policy? What if D Day had been delayed another year? What more breathing room would have given the Germans the chance to develop the A-bomb?
Or perhaps they would have come under attack from our carriers?
Occupying HI was outside of their ability at the time. I read an account of just the logistics required to supply an occupying force. Japan couldn’t have taken HI and the other areas she did.
Japs had trouble dealing with 450 Marines on Wake Island. Dealing with 30K troops in the Hawaiian Division would have been beyond their means, especially since their nearest combat troops were in the Marshall’s readying the attack on Wake. Their plane losses were small but gasoline and ordnance for their aircraft was limited. US submarines and Enterprise and Lexington and the arriving Saratoga would have been a big problem for Nagumo. The loss of fuel depot and repair facilities would have forced the Navy to operate from San Diego, but Hawaii would not have gone under. Though Harry Turtledove did a nice job describing it in his two volume alternate history.
I think what Jaman learned was that:
YOU CANNON DEFEAT USA IN A WAR and it was foolish to think you could.
Lesson learned.
The others raise good points but the carriers would have been doing much attacking if their fuel depots at Pearl Harbor were destroyed
My sister was married to a Navy man who’s wife had just given birth to a beautiful daughter in November. They were stationed in Pearl Harbor. When the attach hid, there was chaos.
When the attach happened, they were told to evacuate. My Sister, living on Diamond Head, had to take one year old, on a journey back to the East Coast where our entire family lived.
We, of course, welcomed her back with open arms, but not knowing what was happening to her husband, was a BIG problem.
She and her adorable daughter came home, lived with us until the war was over.
My sister went home to God, but my wonderful niece is still with us.
I was seven years old when she made me a niece.
And I love her.
Correction:
I was seven years old when she made me an AUNT.
The video addresses what you’re saying and agrees with you.
Thanks. Still in Honolulu from attending the 82d anniversary observance today. Incredibly moving day today.
I’ll watch it when I’m home in CA
That overstates the threat.
Tank farms aren’t that easy to take out, since the tanks were spread out and in revetments to prevent damage from one tank from spreading to another.
Also the Japanese were in no position to invade and occupy Oahu. We still had two over strength divisions on the island.
Kido Butai was at the end of it’s tether having just enough fuel to get to Hawaii and back. It did not have near enough fuel to hang around the islands launching the repeated attacks needed to prepare for an invasion.
And the IJA never launched a successful opposed landing during the war. Their landings were in remote spots with few defenders.
Furthermore, the shipping needed to move enough troops to launch an opposed invasion of Oahu alone, did not exist in Japan. Especially since the ships they had were needed to carry troops to the Philippines, Malaya, and the Dutch East Indies.
Finally, the Imperial Japanese Army, the vast bulk of which was committed to the war in China, would have flatly refused to participate in a operation so far removed from the main theater of war.
It’s also likely that the air defenses against a third wave would have been even stiffer. There was little air defense against the first wave due to surprise. More aircraft were shot down during the second wave. A third might have been even worse for the Japanese. It’s noteworthy that one of the biggest losses for Japan from their losses at Midway was near destruction of their trained pilots. This significantly reduced subsequent naval victories. Loss of more pilots in Hawaii might have reduced their subsequent gains early in the war.
Yes. The Japanese did note the second wave saw a more organized resistance. Plus, they didn’t know where our carriers were. Not sure how we’d fared though with 6v2 carriers. IIRC a third wave attack would have been returning late afternoon/dusk. Nagumo made the right call to withdraw after the second wave.
Good summation.
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