Update from Ukraine | Ruzzian Fake Victory in Marinka | Ukrainian Army Holds and Fights

Youtube.com ^ | 12-1-2023 | Denys Davydov

[BroJoeK]

tenmountainman: "The Draft Dodger is living large in Switzerland."

That is just propaganda because:

1. There's no evidence Davydov is a "draft dodger", just the opposite, his popularity suggests his work is highly approved by Ukrainians.

2. There is only actual evidence of Davydov uploading to YouTube from Switzerland, there is no proof that he actually lives there.

3. "Living large" is a relative term -- what's "large" for me might seem small to you, etc.
   Davydov was an airline pilot and senior pilots can earn around $400,000 per year.
   In a country of relatively low costs like Ukraine, that provided a very comfortable lifestyle.
   In a high-cost country like Switzerland, if that is where he lives, not so much.

4. Contrary to claims often seen, Davidov is a married family man, not a single man living the high life.

tenmountainman: "How in the Hell does he know what is going on in Ukraine?
ANSWER: He doesn’t.
He gets his “Updates” from Ukraine Military.
That’s called Ukraine Propaganda, when it cannot be verified by “Independent” News Sources."

There is a lot of publicly available information on the war which does not necessarily originate from the Ukraine Military, and there are many other YouTubers besides Davydov who report on that public data.
Even Russia-friendly YouTubers are using the same data and maps, though they usually give it a more pro-Russian emphasis.

One source Davydov mentions frequently is the American Institute for the Study of War whose board is lead by US Ret. Gen. Jack Keane.

Sure, obviously, "propaganda" like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but I don't think you can call factual reports and honest opinions "propaganda".

[E. Pluribus Unum]

Seems you are willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian life.

[BroJoeK]

Kazan: "Ukraine's "offensive capabilities" are merely terrorist attacks.
When comes to fighting the Russians on the frontlines, the Ukrainians lack manpower, air support, tanks and ammo."

If you will confess that Russian missile & drone attacks on Ukrainian civilian targets are also "terrorist attacks", I might grant you some equivalences.
But I also notice a recent list of Ukrainian successes, notably including that blown-up train tunnel on the military railroad from China, are more than mere terrorism.
Those have elements of the strategic in them.

Regardless, you are obviously correct in reporting that Ukrainians lack the manpower to conduct the 1,000 deaths-per-day "Meat Assaults" that Russians have conducted these past two months around Avdiivka and elsewhere.
I doubt if you'll ever see those from Ukraine.

Nor does Ukraine yet have the kind of air support we think necessary for successful offensive operations.
One reason is, all of that takes many months & years of training to develop qualified pilots and maintenance crews.
2024 could see more air support capabilities.

Kazan: "You don't seem to grasp the Russian objective is grind the Ukrainian military into dust.
When that's accomplished (and it is very close to being accomplished), Ukraine unconditionally surrenders or a Russian offensive will sweep all the way to the Dnieper river."

Maybe, if that's what Russian propaganda is putting out these days, then it must be 100% true, right?

But I've seen nothing from the Ukrainian side to confirm any of it.
Indeed, Ukrainians are reporting Russian "Meat Wave" assaults costing Russians about 1,000 lost per day, for very small gains in territory.
There are no reliable numbers on Ukrainian losses, but also no indications they approach anywhere near those of Russian "Meat Wave" attacks.

Of course, the bottom line is a definition of "offensive" versus "defensive" capabilities.
Arguably, everything Ukrainians have done is defensive, including whenever they've retaken territories previously conquered by Vlad the Invader.
In that sense, you are, of course, 100% correct.

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

Actually, check out:

US Senator: Ukraine Needs to Negotiate NOW! 4 Dec Daily Update
Combat Veteran Reacts
320K subscribers
Dec 4, 2023 7:00 a.m. EST
13:11 Minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3mh0Cr9S24

[BroJoeK]

rollo tomasi: "Zelenskyy doesn't pray to Christ so why should anyone pray for his realm?"

"Realm"? Seriously? Ukraine is not a "realm" or kingdom, rather, it's a constitutional unitary republic (not a federal state).
Ukraine holds presidential elections every five years and has only once reelected an incumbent, every other election chose a new president from a different political party.

As for Pres. Zelenskyy's religion, his ancestry is Jewish and most of his then living ancestors died in the WWII Holocaust, which should end all claims that Ukrainians are "Nazis".

Today Jews are about 1/2 of 1% of all Ukrainians.
85% of Ukrainians are Christians.
12% of Ukrainians have no formal religion.

These numbers compare to the USA and Russia, both of which are today about 65% Christians and 30% no formal religions.

As for our praying for Zelenskyy himself, St. Paul told us, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4,

“I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness."

However, if you just can't bring yourself to pray for a leader of Jewish ancestry, you might then consider praying for the 85% of Ukrainians who are practicing Christians.

rollo tomasi: "Just commenting on your asinine meme since Zelenskyy supports homosexuality which is an abomination to God.
Maybe God is judging Ukraine and if that is the case maybe we should pray for Ukraine to repent."

Well, of course, all Christians should repent regularly, since, as St. Paul also tells us,

Romans 3:23 (NIV) “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”

But Zelenskyy cannot be said to "support homosexuality" in any sense more than, for example, Donald Trump "supports homosexuality".
For example, in recent years US laws have been changed to grant "equal rights" to same-sex couples and Donald Trump has not called for the repeal of any of those new laws.

Of course, Trump does not support transgendered child mutilation, or pornography in grade school libraries, or biological men competing in women's sports.
Nor, so far as I've ever seen does Ukraine's Pres. Zelenskyy.

rollo tomasi: "Goes for Russia as well,l minus the homosexuality because they condemn that but are evil in other ways."

Under Vladimir Putin's leadership statistics for Russians say they went from around 45% Christians and 47% no religion to today roughly 65% Christians and only 30% no formal religion.
Those current numbers are about the same as for the USA.
Of course, Putin himself is a murderous KGB empire-building dictatorial thug, not a Christian.

rollo tomasi to UMCRevMom@aol.com: "Needless to say, you are a tool spreading bad propaganda."

Not by any definition of the word "propaganda" that I've seen.
But, if you wish to quote any specific words posted here which you feel qualify as "propaganda", I'll be happy to review and discuss those words with you.

[BroJoeK]

rxh4n1: "When you use Democrat talking points on this forum that’s what you deserve."

Berlin_Freeper: "What I think I deserve is an intelligent reply about what Gov DeSantis has said about Trump raising the national deficit almost 8 TRILLION dollars, after promising to eliminate it."

Sadly, the last US presidents who actually reduced the national debt were Warren Harding and Calvin Cooldige (1921 to 1929).
Every president since has added to the debt.
Here is a listing of recent presidents, of whom Pres. Trump, with a Democrat House under Nancy Pelosi, was second best in percentage to Pres. Clinton, with a Republican House under Newt Gingrich.

At the current rate, alleged Pres. Biden will add around 45% to the debt left him by Donald Trump.
Biden's increase in debt will be equivalent to that of Democrat Pres. Carter, who was previously known as our country's worst president.

[BroJoeK]

tennmountainman: "Here is some credible news I’m certain Mommy Dearest won’t include tonight Or any other night.
'Kyiv Mayor Rails Against Authoritarian Volodymyr Zelensky for Using Russian War to Centralize Power' "

Thanks for a very interesting link into local Ukrainian politics.
In general, such complaints are often legitimate, but also a way to generalize what at heart is a personal dispute between Zelenskyy and Kyiv's Mayor Klitschko, which arose from:

"Following a tragic incident in June, where three people were locked outside an air raid shelter and killed during a Russian attack, Zelenskyy ordered an audit.
The audit revealed that only 15% of Kyiv’s 4,655 bomb shelters were suitable, and only 44% were freely accessible, as reported by Reuters at the time.

[Kyiv Mayor] "Klitschko accepted some responsibility for the incident but asserted that Zelenskyy’s appointees were also accountable.
He accused political opponents of working to discredit him and secure his removal from office."

I see this as pretty much "politics as usual" except magnified by the tragedies and griefs of a war being waged by Vlad the Invader against Ukrainians.

[BroJoeK]

FYI, see my post #106 above.

Sadly, in a world gone mad, Trump's performance stands out as better than all except for the Democrat Pres. Carter who was strictly disciplined by House Speaker, Republican Newt Gingrich.

Trump, by contrast, had to contend with Democrat Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

[Kazan]

The Russians have gone out of their way to minimize civilian causalities. This despite the fact the Ukrainian have repeatedly target civilians in Donetsk, used civilians as human shields in Mariupol and intentionally targeted and attempted to cause a meltdown at a nuclear power plant.

Your propaganda doesn't fly with anyone that knows the truth. Nor does it with 80% of the world.

[BroJoeK]

Kazan: "The Russians have gone out of their way to minimize civilian causalities."

I see... that's the first time I've noticed anyone make such a ridiculous claim, and you base that on what, exactly?

Statistics for Ukrainian civilian casualties put them at around 11,000 killed and 18,000 wounded.
And there is a long list of other war crimes committed by Russian forces against Ukrainians, not the least of which are missile attacks on civilian targets.

Russian war crimes in their invasion of Ukraine lists Russian crimes by categories:

1. Abduction and deportations
2. Attacks on civilians
3. Torture of civilians
4. Civilians as human shields
5. Sexual violence
6. Looting
7. Forced conscription
8. Mistreatment of prisoners of war
9. Genocide
10. Unlawful wanton destruction or appropriation of property
11. National legal proceedings
12. International legal proceedings
13. Other international organizations
14. International reactions

There are no reports on Russian civilian casualties in Ukrainian attacks on Russian infrastructure, such as the Kerch Strait Bridge to Crimea and the recent Severomuysky military train tunnel in eastern Siberia, though presumably there were some.

I think the issue of Russian war crimes, attrocities and genocide in Ukraine is well worth exploring in depth, if you are interested enough in it.
A banner in Vilnius, Lithuania:

[BroJoeK]

BJK: " all except for the Democrat Pres. Carter..."

Sorry for that typo, obviously intended to say "Democrat Pres. Clinton", not Carter, similar names, very different characters.

[BroJoeK]

Kazan: "This despite the fact the Ukrainian have repeatedly target civilians in Donetsk..."

"Civilians in Donetsk" is less than accurate.
Those events in 2014 are better described as:

"As conflict between the separatists and the Ukrainian government escalated in May, Russia began to employ a "hybrid approach", combining disinformation tactics, irregular fighters, regular Russian troops, and conventional military support.[93][94][95]
The First Battle of Donetsk Airport followed the Ukrainian presidential elections.
It marked a turning point in conflict; it was the first battle between the separatists and the Ukrainian government that involved large numbers of Russian "volunteers".[96][97]: 15 
According to Ukraine, at the height of the conflict in the summer of 2014, Russian paramilitaries made up between 15% and 80% of the combatants.[85]
From June Russia trickled in arms, armor, and munitions.

"On 17 July 2014, Russian-controlled forces shot down a passenger aircraft, Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, as it was flying over eastern Ukraine.[98]
Investigations and the recovery of bodies began in the conflict zone as fighting continued.[99][100][101]

"By the end of July, Ukrainian forces were pushing into cities, to cut off supply routes between the two, isolating Donetsk and attempting to restore control of the Russo-Ukrainian border.
By 28 July, the strategic heights of Savur-Mohyla were under Ukrainian control, along with the town of Debaltseve, an important railroad hub.[102]
These operational successes of Ukrainian forces threatened the existence of the DPR and LPR statelets, prompting Russian cross-border shelling targeted at Ukrainian troops on their own soil, from mid-July onwards.[103]"

"Civilians" is not the correct description of combatants in the Donbas in 2014.

Kazan: "This despite the fact the Ukrainian have...used civilians as human shields in Mariupol..."

Civilian deaths in Mariopol are unknown but estimated as high as 87,000:

"On 14 March, Oleksiy Arestovych, an adviser to Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy, stated that more than 2,500 civilians had been killed in Mariupol's siege.
[308] However, the city council later clarified that 2,357 civilians had died.[309]

"Pyotr Andryushchenko, an adviser to the city government, however stated that the council's count was inaccurate and estimated that total number of civilians killed could be as high as 20,000.

"On August 29 President of Mariupol Television, volunteer and civil activist Mykola Osychenko said to Dnipro TV that, according to the insider information, 87,000 deaths have been currently documented in morgues in Mariupol.
Besides, 26,750 bodies are buried in mass graves, and many more are buried in the yards of the apartment blocks and private houses, or still under the rubble.[315]

"In early November, Ukraine stated that at least 25,000 civilians had been killed in Mariupol.[44]
In late December, based on the discovery of 10,300 new mass graves, the Associated Press estimated that the true death toll may be up to three times that figure.[316]"

Of course, Russians denied responsibility:

"Numerous war crimes were committed by Russian forces during the siege.
Some media outlets described the crimes that occurred as the worst seen in the 21st century.[329]

"On 25 March, Russian Colonel-General[330] Mikhail Mizintsev was accused by Ukrainian authorities of ordering the bombings of both the Mariupol Children's and Maternity Hospital and the city theatre where 1,200 civilians were sheltering.[4]
Mizintsev was nicknamed the "Butcher of Mariupol" by western and Ukrainian sources as a result of his alleged role in the siege,[3][4][331] and sanctioned by the United Kingdom.[330]
Accused of personally directing war crimes during the siege, Mizintsev accused Ukrainian troops of creating a "terrible human catastrophe," and furthermore claimed that he would allow the safe exit of Ukrainian civilians from Mariupol.
Mizintsev's claims were rejected by Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine Iryna Vereshchuk as "manipulation."[331]"

Kazan: "This despite the fact the Ukrainian have...and intentionally targeted and attempted to cause a meltdown at a nuclear power plant..."

During the battle, March 3, 2022, when Russians seized the Zaporizhzia Nuclear Power plant, there was some minor damage including a fire:

"The fire did not impact reactor safety or any essential equipment.[27][28][26]
The plant lost 1.3 GW of capacity.[29]
It was later learned that a large caliber bullet pierced an outer wall of Reactor No. 4 and an artillery shell hit a transformer at Reactor No. 6.[30]"

Destruction of the nearby Kakhovka Dam did not endanger the nuclear power plant:

"The Institute for the Study of War (ISW), in reference to the NYT report, concurred that "the preponderance of available evidence, reasoning, and rhetoric suggests that Russian forces deliberately damaged the dam". [82]
According to the ISW, Russia had a "greater and clearer interest in flooding the lower Dnipro" as it would widen the Dnieper and hinder a Ukrainian crossing, at the cost of flooding some of its own positions.[50]
Newsweek and Politico reported that Molfar, a Ukrainian, London-based OSINT group, published a report[83] giving its analysis of the causes and chronology of the dam collapse, and concluding that Russia destroyed the dam.[84][85]

"An analysis by the Conflict Intelligence Team concludes that the dam collapsed as a result of structural issues caused by Russian negligence, and therefore Russia is responsible.[41][62][63][64]
Structural issues were considered a possibility by others as well.[31][48][57]"

In October 2023 Russians launched a drone attack against Ukraine's Khmelnytskyy nuclear power plant.

"A Russian drone attack on western Ukraine likely targeted a nuclear power plant, President Volodymyr Zelensky says.
Iranian-designed Shahed drones struck the area around the power plant in the western Khmelnytsky region early on Wednesday, he said.
The attack injured 20 people and caused light damage, including broken windows.
The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said the plant's operations were unaffected."

Kazan: "Your propaganda doesn't fly with anyone that knows the truth.
Nor does it with 80% of the world."

No, I doubt if "80% of the world" is sucking up Russian propaganda as eagerly as you seem to.

Indeed, I've seen no evidence that you have any clue as to what is the real truth.

Massacre of Ukrainian civilians at Bucha:

[JonPreston]

wrong!!

[JonPreston]

Those in power are going to war against Yemen next (Auspices, Houthi rebels, Red Sea). Then we will use NATO via Moldova to attack Russia on new turf, in an effort to support Ukraine, our proxy, by creating a new front. [Bookmark] https://t.co/T4nZmiiqGg— TheLastRefuge (@TheLastRefuge2) December 17, 2023