Sodium-ion batteries are real in China.

Car News China ^ | November 20, 2023 | Jiri Opletal

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

BYD to build 30 GWh sodium battery plant

On November 18, BYD’s subsidiary Findreams Battery and tricycle giant Huaihai Group signed an agreement to build a 10 billion yuan sodium-ion battery plant together . . .

BYD Seagull was rumored to be the first mass-produced EV with a sodium-ion battery. However, when it was launched in April, it came with a standard LFP Blade battery from BYD . . .
CATL announced in April the first automaker to use its Na-ion batteries will be Chery Auto’s iCar brand. However, no progress since then has been announced.

. . .

Thanks to its lower cost and smaller energy density, sodium-ion batteries will be installed on cheaper EVs, like entry-level hatchbacks, electric scooters, or tricycles. Sodium batteries’ mass production will ease pressure on precious metals extractions, as they don’t need lithium (sodium will replace it as cathode material) or any other material that seems problematic, such as cobalt used in ternary NMC batteries (NMC packs have the high energy density and are being used in top trim EVs).

. . .

Pros:

• Generally safer than lithium batteries
• Better performance in cold temperatures
• Slower discharge rate
• Cheaper to produce
• Better for the environment

Cons:

• Slower charge rate
• Lower attainable voltage
• Lower energy density than LFP

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

BYD makes BEVs and other vehicles, but is also one of the largest manufacturers of rechargeable batteries in its own right.

According to youTuber Brian White, sodium-ion batteries do not now have quite as much charge-discharge cycle life as Lithium-ion batteries do - but still enough to be very serviceable.

Full disclosure: Because I concluded that partly because of the Biden Administration's expensive “Inflation Reduction” Act, rechargeable battery production has accelerated, and - concomitantly - rechargeable battery production has become and is becoming more and more efficient, I have invested in Tesla.

Because sodium ion batteries use only plentiful, easily obtained materials - and because they are relatively insensitive to temperature - they are extremely promising for stationary storage applications in which their higher weight isn’t a significant disadvantage. Thus sodium ion batteries promise to complement solar power which is cheap at noon but inoperative at night. Tesla has, relatively quietly, been selling battery storage and the necessary AC-DC interface and the profit-maximizing dispatch software, to utilities. This business has only begun to show up in Tesla’s quarterly report, but promises to contribute substantially to future earnings.

Note that altho Tesla is dipping its toe into battery manufacture, it is predominately a customer of foreign-based manufacturers of batteries. But of course Tesla has never been averse to accepting federal subsidies which it can be quite profitable without, so it is aggressively working to localize battery sourcing as is strongly incentivized by the “Inflation Reduction” Act. Tesla’s subsidy is obviously a cost to the federal treasury which they are going after. But I blame Biden much more than Elon Musk for that. If he could do it, Biden would make the subsidy apply to everyone except Tesla - seeing that Musk is the proprietor of the country’s largest free speech platform . . .

[G Larry]

If you like Lithium Battery fires, you’ll love Sodium Battery fires.

[butlerweave]

I heard the miles per charge is nothing but government lies and nowhere near the real numbers

[George from New England]

It doesn’t take brains to figure out ...

If you store energy you want to later harvest it. Any premature discharge (as in accidental damage) will rapidly release that energy and is likely to be with a furious result.

I personally prefer the energy storage to be heating oil, diesel fuel. Non-explosive under normal temperatures.

[PIF]

So they hold less power which they put out at slower rate. Just what is needed for getting stuck in slow moving traffic, blizzards, long haul trips, crossing mountains, and the bitter cold winter months.

[PIF]

You’ll love your fender bender and insurance bills ...

[stylin19a]

higher weight ? wonder how much heavier...

also, sodium doesn’t like to get wet...it reacts energetically to release hydrogen, which then
explodes.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/07/a-solid-electrolyte-makes-durable-sodium-batteries/

so, could this be considered the “ethanol” for EV’s ?

[GOP_Party_Animal]

They now have mediums to store hydrogen so it can’t explode (it has to be drawn off slowly). IMHO, that’s how tomorrow’s cars should be powered.

[fso301]

If you like Lithium Battery fires, you’ll love Sodium Battery fires.

Yep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCxOyz_fdZw

[Red Badger]

Call them ‘Donner Batteries’.................

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

I heard the miles per charge is nothing but government lies and nowhere near the real numbers

That’s the EPA talking; I for one have never seen anything better than the “city” mileage the EPA estimates. Real “best case” stuff seems to come out of the EPA . . .

There is no gainsaying the fact that the aerodynamic drag of any vehicle goes up as the square of the speed - and that it’s far from rare for people on expressways to (dare I say it) treat the posted speed “limit" as a suggestion.

Pursuant to its “full self driving” software project, Tesla installs cameras in all its cars, and accumulates data on actual driving behavior on a massive scale compared to any other organization . . . and Tesla asserts that the rate of vehicles actually coming to a complete stop at stop signs is like 0.1%.

The included computer in a Tesla actively plans how you can recharge your vehicle so you should never run out of juice. But reportedly the computer’s estimate of remaining range available starts out optimistic if the vehicle is fully charged - and gets realistic as the battery charge declines. The computer knows where every available charging stall is, and can anticipate if a given charging station will have an available stall when you arrive there. There are a lot of Tesla - made charging stations - especially in “blue” states and Florida, but nationwide.

Plus, of course, it is normal for people to buy a charger for their Tesla so they can plug in when their cars are in their garages. That works far better using a 220V outlet than a 110v one, of course. Juice is likely some cheaper that way than on the road, but either way electricity cost per mile driven is substantially better than gasoline cost per mile driven.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

If you store energy you want to later harvest it. Any premature discharge (as in accidental damage) will rapidly release that energy and is likely to be with a furious result.

I personally prefer the energy storage to be heating oil, diesel fuel. Non-explosive under normal temperatures.

Not that it’s a direct comparison, but I have a battery-powered lawnmower in the garage - and, come to think of it, I keep the charger and battery in the house.

If anyone malicious got in my garage, I’d sooner they didn’t find a can of gasoline there. I’d rather they found a battery . . .

Given that Tesla doesn’t buy TV ad time - and that Musk has made Twitter into “X” - I think you can count on the MSM doing Big Auto’s dirty work by screaming to the heavens about any BEV fire anywhere in the world, let alone the USA. Gasoline fires do occur.

[George from New England]

“If anyone malicious got in my garage, I’d sooner they didn’t find a can of gasoline there. “

That’s why you put diesel there ! They won’t get much of a fire started with that.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

So they hold less power which they put out at slower rate. Just what is needed for getting stuck in slow moving traffic, blizzards, long haul trips, crossing mountains, and the bitter cold winter months.

Far as low temperature is concerned, sodium ion beats lithium ion.

But if you’re wanting something peppy, Tesla sells “Performance” versions of their cars. And the quotation marks above are NOT scare quotes.

On the topic of sodium ion, however, such batteries will compete only in the cheapest cars, precisely because of the performance penalty involved compared to lithium.

But don’t discount the market for stationary battery applications. There’s gold in them thar watt-hours at peak usage times . . .

[G Larry]

Gas fires can be extinguished.

For Lithium Battery fires the SOP is to let them burn out.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

higher weight ? wonder how much heavier...

I forget whether the mass disadvantage is 10% or 20%.

sodium doesn’t like to get wet...it reacts energetically to release hydrogen, which then explodes.

I don’t think the sodium in a battery is in its pure elemental form. Table salt is loaded with sodium, and I never heard of a salt shaker exploding . . .

The natural thing in any EV design is to mount the batteries in the bottom of the vehicle, in a container at least as robust as a gas tank in a traditional car. So if, Heaven forfend, your car collides with a BEV, the heaviest thing in the car hitting you won’t be an engine at your waist height but a battery down at foot level . . . and the front of the BEV is designed only for a bit of storage and a lot of crash energy absorption.

[PIF]

If only you can find a charging station ...

[stylin19a]

thanks

...mass disadvantage is 10% or 20%

Tesla has batteries from 1000 to 4000+ pounds.
10-20% is a huge weight gain especially for a battery that provides less output.

Right now, I'm not an EV fan, yet here I\we are talking about it.

I adiosed my gas powered lawn mowers for battery operated mowers - one riding one walking self-propelled.
Still hanging on to my oil\gas powered snowblower cause i haven't seen an electric that could take it's place...yet.

[rmlew]

In theory, Sodium batteries are less likely to burn. Of course, battery made in China is always questionable

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

10-20% is a huge weight gain especially for a battery that provides less output.

No doubt - but that’s on the weight of a given storage-capacity, not the whole vehicle. When cost is a sensitive parameter, as in a cheap vehicle, you have to give somewhere else and vehicle performance is bound to be what suffers.

Again, if the battery is stationary - and that is a very useful application - even 20% heavier doesn’t matter a great deal. Because of the great and growing cost-effectiveness of solar panels, cheap stationary storage of solar electric energy is a very useful commodity.