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New audiobook release: An Historical Research Respecting the Opinions of the Founders of the Republic on Negroes
Librivox ^ | 8/4/23

Posted on 08/04/2023 4:38:50 PM PDT by ProgressingAmerica

If the contents of The 1619 Project are getting under your skin, here's a new audiobook for you.

Nothing else need be said, book speaks for itself.

An Historical Research Respecting the Opinions of the Founders of the Republic on Negroes as Slaves, as Citizens, and as Soldiers, by George Livermore

Book summary: Collects the speeches, writings, public statements and legislative acts of the Founding Fathers and Framers of the United States against slavery. (Summary by progressingamerica)


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: 1619project; abolitionism; audiobook; constitution; foundingfathers; freeperbookclub; negro; negroe; negroes; negros
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To: x
We don't have to go over the cliff with them. Nobody seems to ask, but no, I don't think the tools I build are a silver bullet. But I am certain that they are something, and a definitive measurable something at that.

"They can accept an America that was dedicated to the preservation of slavery."

But why?

What is so seductive about this?

"Unfortunately, it seems like the American establishment has gone over to the 1619 Project

They have. The historians must be stopped. They're destroying everything.

181 posted on 08/18/2023 5:45:29 PM PDT by ProgressingAmerica (The historians must be stopped. They're destroying everything.)
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To: ProgressingAmerica; jeffersondem; BroJoeK; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; DiogenesLamp; central_va
Massachusetts definitely would've been a free-soil state come the future 1776 had the hostile foreign power not interfered. No, not 13 slave states. 12 + 1 free. The Empire forced slavery on the United States.

The Massachusetts Constitution of 1780 was preceded by a constitution drafted by the legislature and rejected by the voters in 1778. The constitution proposed in 1778 would have recognized slavery as a legal institution, and excluded free Blacks from voting.

THAT's what delayed Massachusetts until 1780, not some Evil Empire. This Evil Empire was its own legislature.

The States, from their inception, could have prohibited slavery in their state immediately. They were free to incorporate abolition into their state constitution immediately but they did not—not even Massachusetts.

Do your homework for the first time, come back, and try again.

182 posted on 08/18/2023 6:12:00 PM PDT by woodpusher
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To: ProgressingAmerica

Ancestry I guess, or mistaken notions of libertarianism.


183 posted on 08/18/2023 6:18:28 PM PDT by x
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To: woodpusher; jeffersondem; BroJoeK; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; DiogenesLamp; x; central_va

And rejected by the voters in 1778. And rejected by the voters in 1778? What? Say that again? There’s a gap there. I can see the gap. Why can’t you see the gap? Why are you self immolating? This clearly has to be painful. Why are you ignoring the gap? Why was it rejected? Why are you ignoring the gap? Why was it rejected? Why are you ignoring the gap? Yes. The repeats are purposeful.

The 1778 Mass. Constitution was rejected by Massachusetts in part because of slavery. Massachusetts had already spoken 10 years earlier. They didn’t want it. They told the king no already.

It’s like you know exactly how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together in their traces but you just refuse to look at the picture it’s putting together. But the puzzle traces! ..... FORGET the traces. Look at the photo. Look, at the photo. Loooooooooooooookkkkkkkkk aaaaaattttt iiiiiitttttt.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Justice_Accused/QovkZrJ2bK0C?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA43

Westminster hated slavery, Sutton hated slavery and even went so far as to say that the first Constitution was “wearing a very gross complexion of slavery”; as did other locations in Mass. They plainly said just that in their rejections of that first wretched document. Jeremy Belknap stated in a letter that in the minds of Massachusettsans slavery was abolished some 30 years prior. He was of course probably being sarcastic but the point remains the same. John Adams among others came in and the 1780 document stood strong.

I’ve done my homework. That’s why you’re in the middle of a seppuku.


184 posted on 08/18/2023 8:15:12 PM PDT by ProgressingAmerica (The historians must be stopped. They're destroying everything.)
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To: ProgressingAmerica; jeffersondem; BroJoeK; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; DiogenesLamp; central_va
The 1778 Mass. Constitution was rejected by Massachusetts in part because of slavery. Massachusetts had already spoken 10 years earlier. They didn’t want it. They told the king no already.

Read the official version as compiled and published by the State of Massachusetts. Read page after page as the advocacy for abolition pulses and reverberates throughout the deliberations.

MASSACHUSETTS - A Manual for the Constitutional Convention 1917

Submitted to the Constitutional Convention by the Commission to Compile Information and Date for the use of the Constitutional Convention

Boston, Wright & Potter Printing Company, State Printers, 35 Derne Street, 1917

12

IV. COLONY AND STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS BAY (PROVINCIAL CONGRESS AND PROVINCE CHARTER RESUMED), 1774-1780.

The "five intolerable acts" of Parliament of 1774 included an act amending the Province charter by providing that henceforth the Council, instead of being elected by the General Court, should be appointed by the King's writ of mandamus. To this the people refused to submit. The last regular provincial General Court was dissolved by Governor Gage on June 17, 1774. During the summer the people broke up the courts and held county conventions, which resolved to ignore the "mandamus council," treat the act in question as unconstitutional and void, and send delegates to the Continental Congress at Philadelphia and to a Provincial Congress at Concord.

On September 1, 1774, Governor Gage issued writs for the election of a new General Court, to meet at Salem on October 5. On September 28, owing to the "many tumults and disorders," he cancelled the election. Ninety Representatives-elect met in spite of him at the appointed time and place, declared the Governor's action unconstitutional, resolved themselves into a Provincial Congress on October 7, and adjourned to Concord. There they were joined on October 11 by the delegates already elected to the Provincial Congress by order of the county conventions.

During the next nine months Massachusetts was governed by three successive Provincial Congresses. These were simply revolutionary conventions, — State editions of the Continental Congress at Philadelphia. Each town sent as many delegates as it liked. John Hancock was president of the First and Second Congresses, and Joseph Warren, who fell at Bunker Hill, was president of the Third Congress. While Governor Gage, in Boston, was attempting to suppress rebellion with the aid of his "mandamus council" and the redcoats, the Provincial Congress, meeting at Concord, Cambridge, and Watertown, governed the Province in revolution. On May 5, 1775, after Concord fight, it declared General Gage no longer the lawful Governor, and on June 20 it ordered the election of a regular General Court under the Province charter.

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The House of Representatives thus elected met at Watertown on July 19, 1775, the Third Provincial Congress dissolving the same day. Two days later the House elected a Council of twenty-eight; and the full General Court thus formed resolved that "whereas the late Governor, Lieutenant-Governor or Deputy Governor of the Province have absented themselves, and have refused to govern the Province according to the Charter," the executive power, according to said charter, devolves upon the Council. The Province charter, amended by this legal fiction, was the constitution of the Colony and State of Massachusetts Bay from July 28, 1775, to October 25, 1780.

The old Province and regal forms were retained until June 1, 1776, when writs were first issued in the name of the "Government and People of the Massachusetts-Bay." "Colony of the Massachusetts-Bay" was the official title of the government until the Declaration of Independence was proclaimed from the balcony of the old State House, on July 18, 1776. For the next four years the title, with variations, was "State of Massachusetts-Bay (in New England)." The General Court was usually styled the General Assembly at this period.

This decapitated and republicanized royal charter did not make a successful constitution. A Council of twenty-eight members, fifteen of whom made the quorum, was too slow and unwieldy an executive, especially in war time. It was too fond of appointing its own members to salaried positions. Samuel Freeman, for instance, was at the same time member of the House from Falmouth (Portland), clerk of the House, register of probate, clerk of the superior court, clerk of the sessions, and justice of the peace. The judicial system set up by the General Court was so cumbrous and expensive that the towns of Berkshire County refused to recognize it, setting up local courts of their own. The towns, in fact, were the most powerful part of the government of Massachusetts during the Revolution. They held county and other conventions without any authority from the General Court, gave their representatives precise instructions, and insisted that many important matters, including all constitutional questions, should be referred back to them.

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V. THE MOVEMENT FOR A STATE CONSTITUTION, 1776-1780.

I. PRELIMINARIES.

Before the resumed Province charter had been in operation six months, the demand was made for a new State constitution. This movement originated in Berkshire County, which, on ac­count of its poverty and remoteness, was more alive to the defects of the Provincial system than any other section of the State. It was led by the Rev. Thomas Allen of Pittsfield, a fighting parson who accompanied his flock to Bennington, and himself fired the first shot of the battle. For his straight think­ing on constitutional questions, and his great influence on the movement, Thomas Allen deserves a high place in the history of Massachusetts.

"A memorial to the General Court from the town of Pittsfield," on May 29, 1776, insisted "that the people are the fountain of power;" that the old charter and compacts were dis­solved by the war; and that the General Court had no right to impose any constitution over the people, much less the Province charter. Pittsfield requested the General Court to frame "a fundamental constitution as the basis and frame-work of legis­lation," and refer it to the people for their approbation; for only the consent of a majority can "give life and being to it." When we remember how slowly the modern idea of constitutional law developed, and that all the American State constitutions of 1776 were framed by legislative bodies and put in force without popular ratification, we can appreciate the forward-looking character of this Pittsfield memorial.

The Declaration of Independence so strengthened the consti­tutional movement that on September 17, 1776, the House re­quested the towns to vote whether or not they would grant it permission to go into convention with the Council to frame a constitution; and whether they wished it made public for the "inspection and perusal of the inhabitants before the ratifica­tion thereof by the Assembly." This was the first of eight occa­sions in the history of Massachusetts in which the people have been asked to decide for or against a constitutional convention.

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15

Less than half the towns voted. Most of those that did were willing that the General Court should frame a constitution, provided it were made public not only for inspection and perusal but for ratification. At least two towns — Concord on October 21, 1776, and Acton on November 4 — laid down the principle that a constitution should be framed not by a legis­lature but by a convention of delegates elected for that purpose alone. Concord made a good argument for the principle,1 and further specified that the delegates should be chosen by "the Inhabitants of the Respective Towns in this State being free & of twenty one years of age, and upwards." These are the earliest suggestions as yet discovered in American history of the perfected constitutional convention.

The House committee appointed to canvass these returns and bring in a resolve was so impressed by this suggestion that in January, 1777, it recommended a constitutional convention as subsequently called in 1779. But the General Court did not care to let the task out of its own hands. By a resolve of May 5, 1777, it requested the towns to instruct their representatives to the next General Court to form with the Council a constitu­tional convention. Not all the towns gave this permission. Boston, in particular, ordered its representatives to oppose a legislative convention. The General Court, it explained, would never "prevent the lately too prevalent custom of accumulating offices in one person," and forbid its own members "from ac­cepting any." The General Court ignored these protests, resolved itself into a constitutional convention on June 17, 1777, appointed a joint committee to draft a constitution, and again went about its legislative business. The committee did not report until December. In January, 1778, House and Council again went into convention to discuss and amend the commit­tee's report, and on February 28 the completed constitution was accepted, and submitted to universal suffrage for adoption or rejection as a whole by a two-thirds majority. It was the first American State constitution to be formally submitted for popu­lar action.

1 A part of the resolution adopted by the people of Concord is incorrectly printed in The Debates of the Convention of 1853, I, 823. The frontispiece of this volume is a reproduction of the record of the Concord town meeting. The original is in the State Archives of Massachusetts.

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2. THE CONSTITUTION OF 1778, AND THE ESSEX RESULT.

The Constitution of February 28, 1778, was so imperfect that the Rev. William Gordon of Roxbury, chaplain of the House, publicly asserted that it had been framed with the express in­tention of having it rejected. (Shortly afterward the House dispensed with Dr. Gordon's services.) There was no Bill of Rights, which omission alone was enough to insure its rejection. There was a legislature of two branches, but the Senate was elected indirectly, and acted as the Governor's Council as well as upper House. The Governor had no veto power, and all his acts were limited by the advice and consent of the Senate, in which he had a seat and vote. The whole document was poorly arranged and loosely drafted. As Boston predicted, members of the Legislature were not forbidden to hold offices of their own creation. In one respect, however, the Constitution of 1778 was more liberal than that of 1780; there was no property qualification for the electors of Representatives, and the Sena­tors were apportioned according to population, not taxable property.

The Constitution submitted to the people of Massachusetts in 1778 was rejected by the emphatic vote of 2,083 yeas to 9,972 nays. This decision was undoubtedly influenced by a pamphlet which appeared in April, generally called the Essex Result, as it was adopted by a convention of delegates from the towns of Essex County. The Essex Result was drafted by a twenty-seven year old lawyer of Newburyport, who subse­quently became Chief Justice Parsons. He not only points out the defects in the Constitution of 1778 but undertakes to ascer­tain "the true principles of government" upon which he be­lieved the Constitution of Massachusetts should be founded. Following Locke and the eighteenth-century philosophers, Par­sons starts with the theory of popular sovereignty and natural rights. Some, like the rights of conscience, are inalienable, and are no proper objects for governmental action. These should be defined and retained in a Bill of Rights. Other rights must be given up to the supreme power of the State in order to enable it to protect the life, liberty, and property of the citizen. The great problem is to frame this government.

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"Let the supreme power be so defined and balanced that the laws may have in view the interest of the whole; let them be wisely and consistently framed for that end, and firmly ad­hered to; and let them be executed with vigor and dispatch."

The last clause strikes a new note in American political theory. Americans, so far, had been more concerned with pre­venting tyranny than with promoting efficiency. Owing to their experience with royal governors and judges, they were suspi­cious of the executive and judicial branches. Virginia had in­trusted her supreme power to the Legislature, which elected and largely controlled the Governor; Pennsylvania dispensed with the Governor and the upper House. But many of the leading thinkers among the patriots, notably John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison, believed that the supreme power should be divided into a legislative, an executive, and a judicial power, each to be exercised by a different set of men, and all three co-ordinated by a series of checks and balances. Theophi-lus Parsons carried this doctrine a step further in the Essex Result. "The legislative power must not be trusted with one assembly. A single assembly is frequently influenced by the vices, follies, passions, and prejudices of an individual." It should be divided into two branches, one to represent the people at large, among whom "we shall find the greatest share of po­litical honesty, probity and a regard to the interest of the whole;" the other branch to represent the property of the State, and to give a share in government to "gentlemen of education, fortune and leisure," among whom "we shall find the largest number of men, possessed of wisdom, learning, and a firmness and consistency of character." If each House has an equal voice, no law can be passed without the consent of a majority of "those members who hold a major part of the property," as well as a majority of the persons in the State. A Senate, furthermore, will be able to revise "crude and hasty determi­nations of the House."

Vigor and dispatch are the chief qualities to be aimed at for the executive. "It should be able to execute the laws without opposition, and to control all the turbulent spirits in the state, who should infringe them. If the laws are not obeyed, the legislative power is vain, and the judicial is mere pageantry."

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Let the executive power, then, be vested in one Governor, to be elected by all the people of the State. Give him a complete negative on all laws. He should have a "privy council" to advise with, not chosen by himself but by the House out of the Senate. As this will be a sufficient check on him, he should have a permanent fixed salary, and not be dependent, like the old royal Governors, upon the bounty of the Legislature.

The judges also should be appointed during good behavior and have independent salaries. And as legislative appointment of judges has already proved unsuccessful, let them be appointed by the executive, but removable for misbehavior by the Legis­lature.

In descending from the general to the particular, the Essex Result was not so apt, proposing a complicated system of indi­rect elections through county conventions. But the pamphlet is nevertheless an interesting expression of those principles upon which the Constitutions of Massachusetts and the United States were founded, and an early product of the school of political thought that tamed and curbed the radical forces let loose by the American Revolution.

3. THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION OF 1779-1780.

The Essex Result wished the framing of a constitution to be postponed until the end of the war, and did nothing to promote the idea of the special constitutional convention; that was purely a popular movement. The General Court, which had voted down the idea two years before, was sufficiently chastened by the recent rejection to take it up again in the spring of 1779. A re­solve of February 19 requested the people to decide in their spring town meetings whether they would empower their representa­tives to call a convention for the sole purpose of framing a con­stitution. The result was 6,612 yeas and 2,639 nays. Essex, Barnstable, and the Maine counties cast a light and unfavorable vote, while Boston and the three western counties of Worcester, Hampshire, and Berkshire cast a heavy and almost unanimously favorable vote.1 The General Court then ordered the towns and plantations to elect as many delegates to the Convention as they

1 Franklin and Hampden counties were not incorporated until 1811 and 1812.

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were entitled to send representatives, and expressly provided that every resident freeman twenty-one years of age should vote. As a property qualification was then required for voting for representatives, the Convention rested on a wider electorate than the existing State government. It derived all its authority from the people, in the widest contemporary political sense of that word; and to the people its work was submitted. It cut loose completely from the State government, even to the extent of refusing to apply to it for pay and mileage.

This Convention of 1779-1780 had the greatest task of any constitutional convention in the history of Massachusetts, and performed it under peculiarly difficult circumstances. The period of its sessions, from September 1, 1779, to June 16, 1780, was perhaps the darkest of the Revolutionary War. A joint naval and military expedition, brought together by the State at great cost to dislodge the enemy from Maine, had ended in complete disaster. Sir Henry Clinton was conquering the Carolinas. Our French allies had not yet sent Rochambeau's army or De Grasse's navy. Washington was stalemated on the Hudson, his army undermined by sickness and desertion. State and nation were on the verge of bankruptcy. The Tories were taking heart, and the neutrals going over to their side. Yet at this crisis the State was able to assemble a Convention of 312 members, which, judged by its results, must unquestionably be called the greatest in its history.

Boston sent James Bowdoin (who was elected president of the Convention), Samuel Adams, John Hancock, Samuel Allyne Otis, and John Lowell the elder; Roxbury sent Increase Sumner; Braintree, its favorite son, John Adams; Salem, John Pickering, William Pickman, and Henry Higginson; Newburyport, Jona­than Jackson, Nathaniel Tracy, and the author of the Easex Result; Beverly, George Cabot; Groton, James Sullivan; Worcester, Levi Lincoln the elder; Springfield, Luke Bliss and William Pyncheon; Northampton, Caleb Strong, who holds the record for length of term as Governor of the Commonwealth; Scituate, Judge William Cushing; Taunton, Robert Treat Paine the signer; York, Judge David Sewall; and Brimfield, Timothy Danielson. Hardly an eminent patriot in the State, who was not serving in some other civil or military capacity, was omitted.

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At its first session, in the Meeting House in Cambridge, the Convention organized, adopted a set of ten rules and orders, elected a committee of thirty to prepare a draft, spent a day in "a general and free conversation" on the Constitution, "which lasted till sunset," and adjourned on September 7.

The committee of thirty met at the "New Court House" in Boston, on the site of the present City Hall. It delegated its duties to a subcommittee consisting of James Bowdoin and the two Adamses; and that committee left the entire task to John Adams. No better selection could have been made. John Adams was in his forty-fifth year, at the height of his powers, and one of the highest authorities on political science in America. Long a student of government, his advice had been sought by the framers of the early constitutions in the southern States. He was highly equipped as a lawyer and a practical politician. As a patriot leader in the provincial government and the Continental Congress, and as a minister to France, his polit­ical experience was extensive. It was the task of John Adams to construct a government on the ruins of what his cousin Samuel Adams had done so much to destroy.

The Adams draft, with one or two additions by the larger committee, was ready for the Convention at the beginning of its second session, on October 28, 1779. This entire session was devoted to the Declaration of Rights. Attendance fell off to such an extent that on November 11, when this first part of the Constitution was completed, the Convention adjourned to Jan­uary 5, 1780. This long recess did not promote better attend­ance, for in the meantime the hard winter of 1780, the last really "old-fashioned winter," set in. Boston Harbor was frozen up to Nantasket Roads, and the snow lay so deep in the inte­rior that travel was impossible save by snowshoes. Oldest in­habitants could remember nothing like it since 1717, and its equal has not been known since. The result was that the third session, at the Representatives' Chamber in the Old State House, was unable to transact any business until January 27, when sixty members were present, and the attendance never rose above eighty-two. Yet this was the most important session of the Convention. Almost every article of the John Adams draft of the Frame of Government was committed, debated, and

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21

polished into its final form. On March 2 the Convention again adjourned, submitting the result of its labors to the people in a printed pamphlet, together with an address recommending its acceptance.

4. THE RATIFICATION.

The mode of ratification adopted by the Convention was pe­culiar. Profiting by the experience of 1778, it did not submit the Constitution as a whole to popular vote. Instead, it asked the adult freemen to convene in their town meetings to consider and debate the Constitution clause by clause, to point out objections, if any, to particular articles, and to send in their returns to the secretary of the Convention, with the yeas and nays on every question. The people were then asked to em­power the Convention at an adjourned session on June 5 to ratify and declare the Constitution in force if two-thirds of the voters were in favor of it, or, if not, to alter it in accordance with the popular will as expressed in the returns, and ratify it as thus amended. It was now almost four years since the machinery of constitution making had been set in motion.

About 16,000 people out of a total population of 363,000 voted on the Constitution. This was a larger vote than was cast for Governor during the next six years. The town meet­ings freely accepted the invitation to criticise the Constitution; and their returns are a remarkable testimony to the political wisdom of the plain people of that day. A few objections were grotesque, and certain proposals were reactionary, but many were subsequently adopted as amendments to the Constitution.

On June 5 the Convention convened for its fourth and last session at the old Brattle Street Church in Boston. It had previously invited the towns to replace their delegates by new members if they wished, but only a few did so. A committee was appointed to canvass the returns and report the result to the Convention. This committee adopted a system of tabulation which to-day would be called political jugglery. The towns had not voted on the Constitution as a whole, but article by article; and in many cases they proposed a substitute for an article they objected to, and voted on that instead of on the original. These votes on amended articles were either thrown out or

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counted as if cast for the original article. Hence it was made to appear that every article of the Constitution had well over a two-thirds majority, although a fair tabulation would have shown only a bare majority for at least two.1 Doubtless the Convention felt justified in this rather questionable work by the imperious necessity of obtaining the adoption of the Con­stitution, for in some parts of the State the cry "No Constitu­tion, No Law," was being raised to excuse men from paying taxes or doing military service. On June 15 the Convention voted that the people have accepted the Constitution "as it stands in the printed form." The next day it provided for the first election of Governor and General Court, and closed "with thanksgiving and prayer." On October 25, 1780, John Hancock was inaugurated the first Governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

VI.

CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS, 1780-1915.

1. THE CONSTITUTION OF 1780.

John Adams was a conservative, in the best sense of the word. He believed in preserving old institutions (like annual elections) that had proved their worth, in discarding others (like a de­pendent judiciary) that had not, and creating new ones (like the constitutional convention) to meet new needs. His plan was largely that of the Essex Result, which in turn was doubtless influenced by his own writings on government. The materials he chose from the old colonial and provincial structures, from concrete experiences in self-government for a century and a half, and from the constitutions of sister States.

The Preamble, a new feature in constitutions, is Locke and Rousseau epitomized. The Declaration of Rights is derived from the Bills of Rights of other constitutions, from the colo­nists' own experience with governmental tyranny, and from sources as remote as Magna Carta.2 It was more nearly com-

1 Proceedings of the Massachusetts Historical Society, May, 1917.

2 Article XI is an expansion of Magna Carta, section 40, and the third sentence of Article XII is almost a literal translation of Magna Carta, section 39.

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23

plete than any of its predecessors. Fourteen of the thirty arti­cles are almost identical with the Pennsylvania Declaration, and many of these were taken from the Virginia Bill of Rights of 1776. Others are found in the early constitutions of Maryland, North Carolina, and Delaware.

Three years later, Article I was held by the Supreme Judicial Court, all the judges of which had been members of the Con­vention, to abolish slavery in Massachusetts. It is doubtful whether it had been inserted for that purpose. Most of the other articles were designed to protect the civil rights of the citizens. Articles XIV and XXIV, against general warrants and ex post facto laws, were suggested by the provincial expe­rience with writs of assistance and parliamentary legislation. Subsequent constitutional conventions may be said to be based on Article VII. In John Adams's original draft, Article XVI protected liberty of speech as well as the press, but the Conven­tion amended it.

Article XXIX embodied one of John Adams's conceptions, — the preservation of impartial justice by a judiciary appointed during good behavior and assured of a fixed salary. The provincial judiciary had been most suscepti­ble to political pressure by being appointed during the King's pleasure, and having its salaries annually granted (or withheld) by the General Court.

Article XXX states the central principle of the theory of sep­aration of powers, — that the three branches of government be exercised by a different set of men. Each branch of the govern­ment was "balanced" and "checked" by the other two. The supreme power, the people, checked all three through the Decla­ration of Rights.

"In studying the relations existing between church and State under the revolutionary constitutions," writes Dr. William C. Webster, "one is impressed with the striking contrast between facts and pretensions."1 In almost every constitution were resonant and high-sounding clauses concerning the sacredness of religion and liberty, followed by others denying religious liberty to many creeds and sects. Our own was no exception. Article II of the Declaration of Rights guaranteed freedom of con-

1 Annals of American Academy of Political and Social Science, IX, 403.

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science, but Article III set up a quasi-religious establishment.1 It embodied in the fundamental law of the Commonwealth a church and State relationship formerly alterable by the Legis­lature. (The general principle was that every citizen of the Commonwealth must pay taxes towards the support of the Con­gregational church of the town, parish, or precinct where he resided and where his property was located. The fourth para­graph allowed non-Congregationalists to pay their religious tax to their own pastor; but the courts construed this clause so narrowly that in practice it exempted only members of an in­corporated Episcopalian, Baptist, Methodist, or Universalist church. A member of one of these bodies who resided too far from a church of his denomination to attend it, or a non-church­goer, had to help support a Congregational minister, — unless he lived in Boston, where the voluntary system prevailed. The article was distinctly the work orthodox Calvinist Congrega­tionalists; it was intended (in spite of the fifth paragraph) to favor, and did favor, that sect. But the third paragraph had some unexpected results. Several of the towns and parishes, which thereby were given the exclusive right to elect their "public teachers" (ministers), were converted to Unitarianism, and settled Unitarian pastors over old Calvinist churches. The ratification of Article III was strongly opposed by Baptists and liberals of all shades. During the fifty-three years it was in force it was fruitful in lawsuits, bad feeling, and petty per­secution.

The Constitution of Massachusetts was more liberal than many of the period in extending civil rights to Catholics. The oath of office, however, was intended, as the Convention's address explained, to exclude "those from Offices who will not disclaim these Principles of Spiritual Jurisdiction which Roman Catholicks in some countries have held." Several attempts were made in the Convention to qualify the word "Christian," wher­ever it appears in the Constitution, with the word "Protestant," but without success. John Adams regretted the Convention's

1 The system cannot be described in any one word or phrase. It was not an establishment like that of the Church of England in Ireland and South Carolina, because the Legislature had no power to regulate doctrine and force conformity; and because dissenters received a share of the taxes levied for religious purposes. The Congregational churches were favored rather than established in Massachusetts.

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insertion of the test oath, and Joseph Hawley, the patriot leader of western Massachusetts, refused an election to the State Sen­ate because of it.

Chapter I, Section I, preserves the ancient title of the Legis­lature, the traditional commencement of the legislative year, and much phraseology of the Colony charter. In obedience to the principle of separation of powers, the legislative powers of the old provincial Council were assigned to a Senate, and its executive powers to a Governor's Council; but the common origin of the two was preserved in their election. By this clumsy method the whole General Court chose nine of the forty "councillors and senators" to be the Council; the remainder constituted the Senate. After political parties were formed it became a regular thing for a Councillor-elect to refuse to leave the Senate, fearing to cut down his party's majority; the vacancy in the Council would then (Chapter II, Section III, Article II) be filled from the people at large. The Governor, unlike the President of the United States, was not allowed to select his own Cabinet or Council, since the latter was created to check any tyrannizing tendencies that might crop out in the person of the chief magistrate. All the States but two had a Council. About thirty years later, John Adams wrote a friend that he was heartily sick of the Governor's Council, and in the Convention of 1820, old as he was, he made a speech in favor of its being elected by the people or abolished alto­gether.

"The House of Representatives is intended as the Repre­sentative of the Persons, and the Senate of the property of the Commonwealth," states the address of the Convention of 1780 to the people. Chapter I, Section II, Articles I and V, adopted the scheme of the Essex Result for making the Senate responsive to property interests, — an apportionment of the Senators ac­cording to the taxable property of senatorial districts, with a high property qualification for the office. The famous gerry­mander of 1812 was a rearrangement of senatorial districts. Power to try impeachments presented by the lower House was also granted to the Senate.

In spite of the fact that the House was supposed to represent the people at large, Chapter I, Section III, Article IV, adopted

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26

a property qualification for voting for Representatives as well as Senators. The qualification was not large and in practice soon became a dead letter; but it was fifty per cent higher than that of the Province charter, and exceeded the requirements in every other State save South Carolina. A number of towns strenuously objected to it as unfair, undemocratic, and a viola­tion of the principle of "no taxation without representation." It is difficult to understand why the manhood electorate that voted on the Constitution of 1780 consented to its own partial disenfranchisement by accepting this article.

The town of Newton, in its return on the Constitution, de­manded the extension of the referendum to ordinary legislation. It proposed that upon application of the selectmen of seven towns, any act of the Legislature must be submitted to the town meetings, and might be repealed by a majority of those voting thereon.1

The distribution and numbers of Representatives in the lower House was an open constitutional question in Massachusetts until Amendment XXI was adopted, in 1857. The problem was a three-cornered one, — to reconcile the desire of the small­est towns to retain their traditional right to one Representa­tive, and the claim of the urban centers to a proportional num­ber, with the necessity of keeping the size of the House within reasonable bounds. John Adams at least satisfied town and country, which is more than can be said of the revisions between 1820 and 1853. But in 1812 the membership of the House exceeded 700, or 1 to every 1,000 people. A similar proportion would give us to-day a representative body 3,700 strong. The quorum for the House was so ridiculously small that it was no larger at times than the membership from Boston alone.

The property qualifications for office were higher than in any contemporary constitutions, except those of New Jersey, South Carolina, and Georgia.

Chapter II, Section I, on the Governor, created the most im­posing and independent chief executive in the United States. In only three other States was the Governor elected by the peo­ple, and no other State granted him so great a power of ap­pointment, or a share in legislation. John Adams and The-

1277 State Archives, 22.

- - - - -

27

ophilus Parsons believed in an absolute veto; but the Convention amended John Adams's draft by allowing the Legislature to override the veto by a two-thirds majority. The absence of any constitutional restriction on the Governor's re-election was also unprecedented. Governors Hancock and Strong were both re-elected ten times.

Chapter III, on the judiciary, repeated the principle of fixed tenure and salary already stated in Article XXIX of the Dec­laration of Rights. The people have frustrated every effort of the politicians to revise this chapter, — only one amendment (XXXVII), and that of an interpretative character, ever having been ratified.

In Chapter III, Article I, it was provided that the judges may be removed at any time by the Governor, with the consent of the Council, on the address of both houses of the Legislature. This power of removal has been sparingly exercised, and only once — the anti-slavery case of Judge Edward G. Loring — abused.

Chapter V, Section I, destbed the rights and privileges of Harvard College. Section II, on "the encouragement of litera­ture, etc.," was John Adams's favorite section. He wished Massachusetts to emulate foreign governments in the promotion of scientific research and scholarship. He was particularly anxious lest the "natural history" and "good humor" clauses be deleted by the Convention. The section indicates a much broader conception of governmental action than was common in the individualistic America of theft day.

Chapter VI, Article X, providing for the possible holding of a constitutional convention in 1795, secured a more narrow popular majority than any other article of the Constitution. There was a general feeling of its inadequacy.

The decennial valuation provided for in Chapter I, Section I, Article III, was a unique feature of the Massachusetts Convention.

Although faulty in many of its details, the Constitution of 1780 was the most successful and enduring State constitution of the Revolutionary period. The separation of powers was car­ried out more boldly and logically than ever before, and the drafting was greatly superior to the standard of the day. It has

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28

been possible, in the last one hundred and thirty-six years to change outgrown details while retaining the framework almost unimpaired. No other American constitution has had as long a life; no other written constitution now in force dates back so far.

The Constitution went into effect on October 25, 1780, when John Hancock was inaugurated the first Governor of the Com­monwealth. At the foot of his proclamations appeared for the first time the now familiar formula, "God save the Common­wealth of Massachusetts."


185 posted on 08/19/2023 2:57:10 PM PDT by woodpusher
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To: woodpusher; jeffersondem; BroJoeK; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; DiogenesLamp; x; central_va

Got any more info about how America was anti-slavery decades before Britain was?

Please continue to add.


186 posted on 08/19/2023 5:38:20 PM PDT by ProgressingAmerica (The historians must be stopped. They're destroying everything.)
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To: woodpusher; ProgressingAmerica; BroJoeK; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; DiogenesLamp; central_va; ...

“Read page after page as the advocacy for abolition pulses and reverberates throughout the deliberations.”

Your long post brings to mind the idiom: “It went over his head.”

Bound to cause confusion.


187 posted on 08/19/2023 6:55:57 PM PDT by jeffersondem
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To: ProgressingAmerica; jeffersondem; BroJoeK; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; DiogenesLamp; central_va
Got any more info about how America was anti-slavery decades before Britain was?

I was just quoting the government of Massachusetts itself. It seems the only thing they said about slavery and the 1780 constitution was "Three years later, Article I was held by the Supreme Judicial Court, all the judges of which had been members of the Con­vention, to abolish slavery in Massachusetts. It is doubtful whether it had been inserted for that purpose."

It appears like the Massachusetts court found that abolition stuff emanating from a penumbra the ratifiers didn't know about, sort of like that case about Adam and Steve.

I could regale you with the story of Boston Corbett, but I'll settle for just the five things the people of Massachusetts really found intolerable.

The Five Intolerable Acts of Parliament 1774.

1. Boston Port Act. The Boston Port Act was the first Intolerable Act passed.

2. Massachusetts Government Act. This act changed the government of the colony of Massachusetts. ...

3. Administration of Justice Act. This act allowed the governor to move capital trials against government officials to Great Britain. ...

4. Quartering Act.

5. Quebec Act.

Now, from the Massachusetts Manual for the Constitutional Convention I only quoted from page 12 to page 28. I can give you out to page 41 if you really want it. There is a humdinger at page 35 I can share now:

Levereit Saltonstall of Salem deemed voluntary support a "fearful experiment. . . . Our temples of worship will decay and fall around us. Those beautiful spires that now ornament our towns and villages will fall to the ground." Besides, depriving Congregational parishes of the right to tax all non-churchgoers and non-resident property-owners within their limits will impair a vested interest. "Corporate rights and priv­ileges are sacred things. . . .

Gotta love those New England values.

188 posted on 08/19/2023 8:19:46 PM PDT by woodpusher
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To: jeffersondem; ProgressingAmerica; BroJoeK; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; DiogenesLamp; central_va
Bound to cause confusion.

Well golly gee, it surely was a revelation. Bless his heart, I'll bet he went to his fainting couch.

189 posted on 08/19/2023 8:26:21 PM PDT by woodpusher
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To: woodpusher; jeffersondem; BroJoeK; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; x; DiogenesLamp; central_va
"I was just quoting the government of Massachusetts itself. It seems the only thing they said about slavery and the 1780 constitution was..."

1780?

How did we get off of the 1778 Constitution so quickly? What are you running from, son?

"Gotta love those New England values."

Save your civil war digs for someone who is interested in it.

190 posted on 08/19/2023 9:48:13 PM PDT by ProgressingAmerica (The historians must be stopped. They're destroying everything.)
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To: ProgressingAmerica; jeffersondem; BroJoeK; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; DiogenesLamp; central_va
"Gotta love those New England values."

Save your civil war digs for someone who is interested in it.

You really should go back to your feinting chair. You have obviously had some sort of breakdown.

Repeating for context from my #188:

Now, from the Massachusetts Manual for the Constitutional Convention I only quoted from page 12 to page 28. I can give you out to page 41 if you really want it. There is a humdinger at page 35 I can share now:

Levereit Saltonstall of Salem deemed voluntary support a "fearful experiment. . . . Our temples of worship will decay and fall around us. Those beautiful spires that now ornament our towns and villages will fall to the ground." Besides, depriving Congregational parishes of the right to tax all non-churchgoers and non-resident property-owners within their limits will impair a vested interest. "Corporate rights and priv­ileges are sacred things. . . .

Gotta love those New England values.

My comment explicitly pertained to the Massachusetts debate on its 1780 Constitution. It is under the heading "The Constitution of 1780." The last time I checked, the Civil War did not happen in 1780. It is clear that this document was very stressful for you, and you are dazed and confused. Please take whatever time you need on your fainting couch to recover from the shock of it.

"I was just quoting the government of Massachusetts itself. It seems the only thing they said about slavery and the 1780 constitution was..."

1780?

How did we get off of the 1778 Constitution so quickly? What are you running from, son?

Why, I quoted seven pages from the Massachusetts Manual for the Constitutional Convention 1917, a government compilation of data and information about earlier conventions, which pages covered the 1778 Constitutional Convention. Coverage of the 1780 Convention did not start until page 18. I'll repeat up to page 18 for you so you will not have so much difficulty finding it, child.

MASSACHUSETTS - A Manual for the Constitutional Convention 1917

Submitted to the Constitutional Convention by the Commission to Compile Information and Date for the use of the Constitutional Convention

Boston, Wright & Potter Printing Company, State Printers, 35 Derne Street, 1917

12

IV. COLONY AND STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS BAY (PROVINCIAL CONGRESS AND PROVINCE CHARTER RESUMED), 1774-1780.

The "five intolerable acts" of Parliament of 1774 included an act amending the Province charter by providing that henceforth the Council, instead of being elected by the General Court, should be appointed by the King's writ of mandamus. To this the people refused to submit. The last regular provincial General Court was dissolved by Governor Gage on June 17, 1774. During the summer the people broke up the courts and held county conventions, which resolved to ignore the "mandamus council," treat the act in question as unconstitutional and void, and send delegates to the Continental Congress at Philadelphia and to a Provincial Congress at Concord.

On September 1, 1774, Governor Gage issued writs for the election of a new General Court, to meet at Salem on October 5. On September 28, owing to the "many tumults and disorders," he cancelled the election. Ninety Representatives-elect met in spite of him at the appointed time and place, declared the Governor's action unconstitutional, resolved themselves into a Provincial Congress on October 7, and adjourned to Concord. There they were joined on October 11 by the delegates already elected to the Provincial Congress by order of the county conventions.

During the next nine months Massachusetts was governed by three successive Provincial Congresses. These were simply revolutionary conventions, — State editions of the Continental Congress at Philadelphia. Each town sent as many delegates as it liked. John Hancock was president of the First and Second Congresses, and Joseph Warren, who fell at Bunker Hill, was president of the Third Congress. While Governor Gage, in Boston, was attempting to suppress rebellion with the aid of his "mandamus council" and the redcoats, the Provincial Congress, meeting at Concord, Cambridge, and Watertown, governed the Province in revolution. On May 5, 1775, after Concord fight, it declared General Gage no longer the lawful Governor, and on June 20 it ordered the election of a regular General Court under the Province charter.

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13

The House of Representatives thus elected met at Watertown on July 19, 1775, the Third Provincial Congress dissolving the same day. Two days later the House elected a Council of twenty-eight; and the full General Court thus formed resolved that "whereas the late Governor, Lieutenant-Governor or Deputy Governor of the Province have absented themselves, and have refused to govern the Province according to the Charter," the executive power, according to said charter, devolves upon the Council. The Province charter, amended by this legal fiction, was the constitution of the Colony and State of Massachusetts Bay from July 28, 1775, to October 25, 1780.

The old Province and regal forms were retained until June 1, 1776, when writs were first issued in the name of the "Government and People of the Massachusetts-Bay." "Colony of the Massachusetts-Bay" was the official title of the government until the Declaration of Independence was proclaimed from the balcony of the old State House, on July 18, 1776. For the next four years the title, with variations, was "State of Massachusetts-Bay (in New England)." The General Court was usually styled the General Assembly at this period.

This decapitated and republicanized royal charter did not make a successful constitution. A Council of twenty-eight members, fifteen of whom made the quorum, was too slow and unwieldy an executive, especially in war time. It was too fond of appointing its own members to salaried positions. Samuel Freeman, for instance, was at the same time member of the House from Falmouth (Portland), clerk of the House, register of probate, clerk of the superior court, clerk of the sessions, and justice of the peace. The judicial system set up by the General Court was so cumbrous and expensive that the towns of Berkshire County refused to recognize it, setting up local courts of their own. The towns, in fact, were the most powerful part of the government of Massachusetts during the Revolution. They held county and other conventions without any authority from the General Court, gave their representatives precise instructions, and insisted that many important matters, including all constitutional questions, should be referred back to them.

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14

V. THE MOVEMENT FOR A STATE CONSTITUTION, 1776-1780.

I. PRELIMINARIES.

Before the resumed Province charter had been in operation six months, the demand was made for a new State constitution. This movement originated in Berkshire County, which, on ac­count of its poverty and remoteness, was more alive to the defects of the Provincial system than any other section of the State. It was led by the Rev. Thomas Allen of Pittsfield, a fighting parson who accompanied his flock to Bennington, and himself fired the first shot of the battle. For his straight think­ing on constitutional questions, and his great influence on the movement, Thomas Allen deserves a high place in the history of Massachusetts.

"A memorial to the General Court from the town of Pittsfield," on May 29, 1776, insisted "that the people are the fountain of power;" that the old charter and compacts were dis­solved by the war; and that the General Court had no right to impose any constitution over the people, much less the Province charter. Pittsfield requested the General Court to frame "a fundamental constitution as the basis and frame-work of legis­lation," and refer it to the people for their approbation; for only the consent of a majority can "give life and being to it." When we remember how slowly the modern idea of constitutional law developed, and that all the American State constitutions of 1776 were framed by legislative bodies and put in force without popular ratification, we can appreciate the forward-looking character of this Pittsfield memorial.

The Declaration of Independence so strengthened the consti­tutional movement that on September 17, 1776, the House re­quested the towns to vote whether or not they would grant it permission to go into convention with the Council to frame a constitution; and whether they wished it made public for the "inspection and perusal of the inhabitants before the ratifica­tion thereof by the Assembly." This was the first of eight occa­sions in the history of Massachusetts in which the people have been asked to decide for or against a constitutional convention.

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15

Less than half the towns voted. Most of those that did were willing that the General Court should frame a constitution, provided it were made public not only for inspection and perusal but for ratification. At least two towns — Concord on October 21, 1776, and Acton on November 4 — laid down the principle that a constitution should be framed not by a legis­lature but by a convention of delegates elected for that purpose alone. Concord made a good argument for the principle,1 and further specified that the delegates should be chosen by "the Inhabitants of the Respective Towns in this State being free & of twenty one years of age, and upwards." These are the earliest suggestions as yet discovered in American history of the perfected constitutional convention.

The House committee appointed to canvass these returns and bring in a resolve was so impressed by this suggestion that in January, 1777, it recommended a constitutional convention as subsequently called in 1779. But the General Court did not care to let the task out of its own hands. By a resolve of May 5, 1777, it requested the towns to instruct their representatives to the next General Court to form with the Council a constitu­tional convention. Not all the towns gave this permission. Boston, in particular, ordered its representatives to oppose a legislative convention. The General Court, it explained, would never "prevent the lately too prevalent custom of accumulating offices in one person," and forbid its own members "from ac­cepting any." The General Court ignored these protests, resolved itself into a constitutional convention on June 17, 1777, appointed a joint committee to draft a constitution, and again went about its legislative business. The committee did not report until December. In January, 1778, House and Council again went into convention to discuss and amend the commit­tee's report, and on February 28 the completed constitution was accepted, and submitted to universal suffrage for adoption or rejection as a whole by a two-thirds majority. It was the first American State constitution to be formally submitted for popu­lar action.

1 A part of the resolution adopted by the people of Concord is incorrectly printed in The Debates of the Convention of 1853, I, 823. The frontispiece of this volume is a reproduction of the record of the Concord town meeting. The original is in the State Archives of Massachusetts.

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16

2. THE CONSTITUTION OF 1778, AND THE ESSEX RESULT.

The Constitution of February 28, 1778, was so imperfect that the Rev. William Gordon of Roxbury, chaplain of the House, publicly asserted that it had been framed with the express in­tention of having it rejected. (Shortly afterward the House dispensed with Dr. Gordon's services.) There was no Bill of Rights, which omission alone was enough to insure its rejection. There was a legislature of two branches, but the Senate was elected indirectly, and acted as the Governor's Council as well as upper House. The Governor had no veto power, and all his acts were limited by the advice and consent of the Senate, in which he had a seat and vote. The whole document was poorly arranged and loosely drafted. As Boston predicted, members of the Legislature were not forbidden to hold offices of their own creation. In one respect, however, the Constitution of 1778 was more liberal than that of 1780; there was no property qualification for the electors of Representatives, and the Sena­tors were apportioned according to population, not taxable property.

The Constitution submitted to the people of Massachusetts in 1778 was rejected by the emphatic vote of 2,083 yeas to 9,972 nays. This decision was undoubtedly influenced by a pamphlet which appeared in April, generally called the Essex Result, as it was adopted by a convention of delegates from the towns of Essex County. The Essex Result was drafted by a twenty-seven year old lawyer of Newburyport, who subse­quently became Chief Justice Parsons. He not only points out the defects in the Constitution of 1778 but undertakes to ascer­tain "the true principles of government" upon which he be­lieved the Constitution of Massachusetts should be founded. Following Locke and the eighteenth-century philosophers, Par­sons starts with the theory of popular sovereignty and natural rights. Some, like the rights of conscience, are inalienable, and are no proper objects for governmental action. These should be defined and retained in a Bill of Rights. Other rights must be given up to the supreme power of the State in order to enable it to protect the life, liberty, and property of the citizen. The great problem is to frame this government.

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17

"Let the supreme power be so defined and balanced that the laws may have in view the interest of the whole; let them be wisely and consistently framed for that end, and firmly ad­hered to; and let them be executed with vigor and dispatch."

The last clause strikes a new note in American political theory. Americans, so far, had been more concerned with pre­venting tyranny than with promoting efficiency. Owing to their experience with royal governors and judges, they were suspi­cious of the executive and judicial branches. Virginia had in­trusted her supreme power to the Legislature, which elected and largely controlled the Governor; Pennsylvania dispensed with the Governor and the upper House. But many of the leading thinkers among the patriots, notably John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison, believed that the supreme power should be divided into a legislative, an executive, and a judicial power, each to be exercised by a different set of men, and all three co-ordinated by a series of checks and balances. Theophi-lus Parsons carried this doctrine a step further in the Essex Result. "The legislative power must not be trusted with one assembly. A single assembly is frequently influenced by the vices, follies, passions, and prejudices of an individual." It should be divided into two branches, one to represent the people at large, among whom "we shall find the greatest share of po­litical honesty, probity and a regard to the interest of the whole;" the other branch to represent the property of the State, and to give a share in government to "gentlemen of education, fortune and leisure," among whom "we shall find the largest number of men, possessed of wisdom, learning, and a firmness and consistency of character." If each House has an equal voice, no law can be passed without the consent of a majority of "those members who hold a major part of the property," as well as a majority of the persons in the State. A Senate, furthermore, will be able to revise "crude and hasty determi­nations of the House."

Vigor and dispatch are the chief qualities to be aimed at for the executive. "It should be able to execute the laws without opposition, and to control all the turbulent spirits in the state, who should infringe them. If the laws are not obeyed, the legislative power is vain, and the judicial is mere pageantry."

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18

Let the executive power, then, be vested in one Governor, to be elected by all the people of the State. Give him a complete negative on all laws. He should have a "privy council" to advise with, not chosen by himself but by the House out of the Senate. As this will be a sufficient check on him, he should have a permanent fixed salary, and not be dependent, like the old royal Governors, upon the bounty of the Legislature.

The judges also should be appointed during good behavior and have independent salaries. And as legislative appointment of judges has already proved unsuccessful, let them be appointed by the executive, but removable for misbehavior by the Legis­lature.

In descending from the general to the particular, the Essex Result was not so apt, proposing a complicated system of indi­rect elections through county conventions. But the pamphlet is nevertheless an interesting expression of those principles upon which the Constitutions of Massachusetts and the United States were founded, and an early product of the school of political thought that tamed and curbed the radical forces let loose by the American Revolution.

You had stated earlier, "The 1778 Mass. Constitution was rejected by Massachusetts in part because of slavery. However, in the compilation of statements about the 1778 Constitution, slavery gets no mention at all. Not a mumbling word until page 23 about the 1780 Constitution. There is found the following comment which I pointed out, and will quote again.

Three years later, Article I was held by the Supreme Judicial Court, all the judges of which had been members of the Convention, to abolish slavery in Massachusetts. It is doubtful whether it had been inserted for that purpose.

191 posted on 08/19/2023 11:42:07 PM PDT by woodpusher
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To: woodpusher; jeffersondem; BroJoeK; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; x; DiogenesLamp; central_va
"However, in the compilation of statements about the 1778 Constitution, slavery gets no mention at all."

Then your source is flawed, missing information, or it is flat-out incorrect in total(or all three) and you should stop using it and embarrassing yourself. As I showed earlier, not only did Sutton object on the grounds of slavery, so did Westminster. As quoted earlier:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Justice_Accused/QovkZrJ2bK0C?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA43

Here's the original transcript from Westminster themselves, decrying the very fact and proving the above book accurate.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/History_of_Westminster_Massachusetts/sWklAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA185

History of Westminster, Massachusetts (first Named Narragansett No.2) from the Date of the Original Grant of the Township to the Present Time, 1728-1893; with a Biographic-genealogical Register of Its Principal Families, 1893

Westminster said:

Article 5th Deprives a part of the humane Race of their Natural Rights mearly on account of their color which in our opinion no power on Earth has a Just Right to Doe.

Your usual strawman of "well they objected on these 8 things, see see!" is the height of stupidity. I'm not making the claim you're trying to construct. You're trying to deceitfully insert the word "only" into my posts. That word is your own.

The interesting thing to me is that Article V, the article that got Sutton and Westminsters and others all bent out of shape about the 1778 proposal, does not appear in this huge wall of text you keep throwing at the wall hoping it will stick. It's not sticky. All we need to see is the plain text Article V/1778, we don't need any of this other distraction.

Oh, and to quote a certain wiseman around here:

Do your homework for the first time, come back, and try again.

192 posted on 08/20/2023 12:26:24 AM PDT by ProgressingAmerica (The historians must be stopped. They're destroying everything.)
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To: woodpusher; jeffersondem; BroJoeK; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; x; DiogenesLamp; central_va
I see what is happening here, it's the usual dishonesty from you. This book is terribly summarized since that 1778 Constitution was rejected. Why keep much information about it?

So, what you quoted is going to stick to the wall after all but not as you had hoped. This is terribly unflattering. It's not that the book is all that bad per-se, it's that you, you're the problem. As usual, you are the problem.

This decision was undoubtedly influenced by a pamphlet which appeared in April, generally called the Essex Result, as it was adopted by a convention of delegates from the towns of Essex County. The Essex Result was drafted by a twenty-seven year old lawyer of Newburyport, who subse­quently became Chief Justice Parsons. He not only points out the defects in the Constitution of 1778 but undertakes to ascer­tain "the true principles of government" upon which he be­lieved the Constitution of Massachusetts should be founded. Following Locke and the eighteenth-century philosophers, Par­sons starts with the theory of popular sovereignty and natural rights. Some, like the rights of conscience, are inalienable, and are no proper objects for governmental action. These should be defined and retained in a Bill of Rights. Other rights must be given up to the supreme power of the State in order to enable it to protect the life, liberty, and property of the citizen. The great problem is to frame this government.

This matches up perfectly with Westminster's recorded objection. Natural Rights apply to black people too. That's exactly what Westminster complained about. Natural Rights. Here, again, is Westminster's complaint:

Article 5th Deprives a part of the humane Race of their Natural Rights mearly on account of their color which in our opinion no power on Earth has a Just Right to Doe.

It's time to quit this monumental display of foolishness on your part.

It's your book. I didn't bring this one to the table. You did. How are you going to get out of this one now?

193 posted on 08/20/2023 12:36:12 AM PDT by ProgressingAmerica (The historians must be stopped. They're destroying everything.)
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To: ProgressingAmerica

L8r


194 posted on 08/20/2023 2:37:23 AM PDT by AFreeBird
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To: wardaddy; jeffersondem; DiogenesLamp; Pelham; central_va; x; jmacusa
wardaddy: "You are self righteous and you use pejorative labeling like the left does to bolster that on your crusade here"

Do you mean pejorative labels like, "1860 insane Fire Eater Democrats"? Or "Confederate slavocrats"? Or "KKK Democrats"?
Do those terms bother you? Do you take them as personal insults?

If so, can you explain why?

As for "self righteous", I am exactly the same degree of "self righteous" as wardaddy & every other Lost Cause defender here.
Indeed, how insanely self righteous do you have to be to post here defending the indefensible and making excuses for the inexcusable, as opposed to simply posting facts and defending the truth?

wardaddy: "A sizable swath of neocons do just that and often but not always they dovetail with nevertrumpism and now the Uke war
In other words weak on culture and worship the Republican Party"

Yeah, I've seen no "never-Trumpers" posting on Free Republic, and I've never looked at other sites to find them.
As for Ukraine, setting aside certain Russian bots in St. Petersburg troll farms, most FReepers are conflicted about Ukraine -- on the one hand we recognize Vlad the Invader's naked aggression should be stopped, but on the other hand we don't trust the Biden administration to send the right kinds or amounts of aid without also corrupting the people we're trying to help.

But none of this has anything to do with the Lost Cause of the Confederacy.

As for "worship the Republican party", that's an odd accusation coming from someone who's taken up residence at the altar of the Lost Cause, and who equates any disagreement with Lost Cause Orthodoxy as an assault on, "the South".

The truth is, many of us here share the priorities of Sirius-XM Patriot host Andrew Wilkow who says he's "individual patriot first, conservative second and Republican third".
I think that pretty much describes everyone posting here, including me.

Your pejorative label, "neocon" describes nobody I know of.

wardaddy: "Your favorite tack is labeling those who disagree about our history here as neoconfederates and pro slavery
Defending our culture here brings it out in you"

No, many years ago I learned that, for some inexplicable reason, y'all don't like being called "neo-Confederates", but you have no problem with being called "pro-Confederates", and most of y'all don't object to the term "Lost Cause of the Confederacy", or being called "pro-Lost Cause", or even, "Lost Causers", though I have seen occasional push-back on "Lost Causers".

As for your "defending our culture", if by that you mean slavery, then you deserve whatever criticisms you receive.
But, once you exclude slavery from "our culture", then nobody here has ever criticized "Southern culture" -- far from it, there is much to be praised in traditional Southern values and hospitality.

wardaddy: "Scratch the surface there is often a personal reason your obsession
It’s fine but you’re simply not morally superior to anyone here because you fixate on racial redress and see slavery as this obsession"

In psychology, what you're doing here is called "projection" and it's a favorite political trick of Democrats, which they first learned from the Old Soviets -- they take whatever evil is in their own hearts and project it onto their opponents.

Nobody posting on Free Republic is doing any of what you claim.
Instead, all we've ever done is try to correct Lost Cause Lies with actual historical facts, reasons and truth.

But y'all don't care about any of that, do you?

195 posted on 08/20/2023 5:55:03 AM PDT by BroJoeK (future DDG 134 -- we remember)
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To: woodpusher; ProgressingAmerica; jeffersondem; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; DiogenesLamp
woodpusher: "ProgressingAmerica repeatedly innsisted on claiming that the British empire forced slavery upon the American STATES, before and after the Founding.
The colonies were British colonies, created by the British to serve the British realm.
The British forced slavery upon British subjects.
The British had no power to force slavery upon the American STATES, nor did they do so."

I don't think ProgressingAmerica or anyone else here disagrees with your argument.

I do think you're pettifogging a minor distinction, and ignoring the larger historical truth which is that slavery was imposed on Colonies by British law and thereafter required an act of political will and social engineering to abolish.

To their credit, most Founders believed it was better to accomplish abolition gradually and peacefully, which some modern observers have interpreted as meaning they were not, in fact, opposed to slavery.
However, by the time of their passing, circa 1825, they had accomplished or begun abolition in about half of the United States & territories, an area roughly the size of Europe west of Poland.

196 posted on 08/20/2023 7:03:15 AM PDT by BroJoeK (future DDG 134 -- we remember)
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To: ProgressingAmerica; jeffersondem; DiogenesLamp; Ultra Sonic 007; woodpusher; x; Renfrew; ...
ProgressingAmerica: "Wow. That is a tragedy.
Having the same arguments with the same 15 people for 20 years is lost productive time that cannot be recovered.
And what is there to show for it?"

Look at a political map of the USA, "Red States" and "Blue States".
The Republican Party is centered in... the center of the USA, including, especially, the South.
We are today an alliance of rural, small town and suburban populations which is strongest in states with fewer big cities.
That is especially true in the South, but many Southerners, notably our Lost Causers, chafe under their yokes to other Americans -- Northerners, Easterners, Mid-westerners and Westerners -- who see the Civil War as basically good and necessary to abolish an ancient evil, slavery.

That drives some of our Southerners crazy with anger, their heads explode because they learned as children a very different version of history, and no matter how untruthful, they can't & won't let go of it.
They think anybody who disagrees with their lies "hates the South" and hates them personally.
Plus, there are a few others -- DiogenesLamp and woodpusher, iirc -- who claim not to be Southerners but to have somehow "discovered the truth" about the Civil War and now feel compelled to post their version of "truth" on any thread remotely related to a Civil War subject.

So the issue here is not, "can we change their minds", I don't think we can or will, ever.
They will die, hopefully in very old age, believing what they learned as children and hating anybody who disagrees with their versions.

Rather, the real question is, do we abandon Free Republic to them, let them post their nonsense without opposition, and go off and find another site more compatible with our own opinions?
That's pretty much what's happening elsewhere, but I don't think it would be good for anybody.
I think it's much better to oppose lies with facts, rather than let the lies be repeated endlessly until they can seem like truth to someone who's never heard otherwise.

FYI, history was my major in college, and I've never made money teaching it, but it is my hobby, I'm a history buff and enjoy a good argument.

Plus, it's a game anybody can play and anyone who does play will almost always learn something new from it.

ProgressingAmerica: "There is an argument that all Lost Causers make in that that promote that they have no issue with the Founding/Founders, and perhaps pro-Founding.
Their issue is with Lincoln, only Lincoln, or the Union, ... or somewhere in between that Axis of Evil.
In other words, a wall of separation between Founding and CW and a recognition that it's 80 years later."

I'm sorry, my apologies, but I don't follow your argument here, you seem to be referring to something I don't recognize or understand.
If it's important to you, maybe you could take the time to explain it in depth, with references I can check out?

197 posted on 08/20/2023 7:45:49 AM PDT by BroJoeK (future DDG 134 -- we remember)
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To: BroJoeK; ProgressingAmerica

During the Civil War Centennial, the Southern writer Robert Penn Warren wrote that since the Civil War, Northerners self-righteously believed that the crusade against slavery had given them a Treasury of Virtue, and Southerners used the destruction of the war as the Great Alibi for their relative underdevelopment.

It might have been that way in his time, but in the Civil War era, including the years before and after the war, secessionist and Confederate leaders did feel mightily self-righteous. It took some time for that to die down. 19th century politics were nothing but self-righteous, and that applied to people considered to be on the “wrong side of history” today.

After Warren wrote, there was a strange revival of libertarian thinking, that gave defenders of the Confederacy a new self-righteous faith in the idea that if the South had won, the bad things that happened in the 20th century, like the massive growth of government, and maybe even the Second World War, wouldn’t have happened. That fervor is very strong in some posters here.

The South no longer is “underdeveloped” and no longer needs an alibi, but the image of the self-righteous Yankee endures. There is some truth to it. It has some basis in reality to be sure, but like other generalizations it’s not the whole truth and shouldn’t hide what was going on 160 years ago or what’s going on today.

Talk about “heritage”. Respect, even reverence, for Lincoln was part of the heritage of the Northern (and Western) states. It was shared (in a milder fashion) by many Southerners. Take that away — make it mandatory to hate Lincoln as a “tyrant” and reverence the Confederates as freedom fighters — and part of our heritage is lost. I understand that something similar is true of respect for Lee. A half century ago the country could respect both men. Now it seems, it’s one or the other — or more often, neither.


198 posted on 08/20/2023 10:43:04 AM PDT by x
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To: x

Self-righteousness is just a phony form of respectability.


199 posted on 08/20/2023 11:49:26 AM PDT by jmacusa (Liberals. Too stupid to be idiots.)
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To: jmacusa; BroJoeK; woodpusher; ProgressingAmerica; Renfrew; wardaddy; Pelham; DiogenesLamp; ...

“Self-righteousness is just a phony form of respectability.”

Then there is the real respectability, the kind earned from friend and foe alike.

Brings to mind the obituary for General Lee written by the New York Herald.

“On a quiet autumn morning, in the land which he loved so well and served so faithfully, the spirit of Robert Edward Lee left the clay which it had so much ennobled and traveled out of this world into the great and mysterious land. Here in the North, forgetting that the time was when the sword of Robert Edward Lee was drawn against us—forgetting and forgiving all the years of bloodshed and agony—we have long since ceased to look upon him as the Confederate leader, but have claimed him as one of ourselves; have cherished and felt proud of his military genius; have recounted and recorded his triumphs as our own; have extolled his virtue as reflecting upon us—for Robert Edward Lee was an American, and the great nation which gave him birth would be today unworthy of such a son if she regarded him lightly.”


200 posted on 08/20/2023 1:06:52 PM PDT by jeffersondem
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