THE SIEGE OF VICKSBURG: Another Line of Defences Discovered in the Rear of the City; GEN. GRANT CONFIDENT OF SUCCESS (5/27/1863)

New York Times - Times Machine ^ | 5/27/1863

[Homer_J_Simpson]

WASHINGTON, Tuesday, May 26.

Up to 10 o'clock to-night, no later intelligence from Vicksburgh than that communicated to the public to-day had been received by the President. It is not believed that GRANT himself has recently sent any telegrams to the Government respecting his movements.

It is understood that a dispatch received to-day states that another line of defences has been discovered in the rear of Vicksburgh, which it would be necessary to take by storm.

WASHINGTON, Tuesday, May 26.

It is stated that a dispatch has been received from Gen. GRANT, speaking of an intercepted dispatch from JEFF. DAVIS, promising the forces at Vicksburgh that, if they hold out fifteen days longer, he will send them a hundred thousand reinforcements; also, that Gen. GRANT is perfectly confident of taking the city, but that it must be done by investment and approaches, and a week may be consumed in it. JEFF. DAVIS' promise of reinforcements of course refers to BRAGG's army, but there is reason to believe that Gen. ROSECRANS will not be slow to prevent any movement of this sort.

This dispatch is understood to have been received this morning. Since then nothing whatever has been made public concerning the situation at Vicksburgh.

A DISPATCH FROM GEN. HURLBUT.

WASHINGTON, Tuesday, May 26.

The following has been received at the headquarters of the army here:

MEMPHIS, Tenn., Monday, May 25 -- 11 1/2 A.M.

Maj.-Gen. H.W. Halleck, General-in-Chief:

The Luminary is just up from Vicksburgh.

There are no official dispatches.

Ordnance Officer LYFORD writes under date of May 22, as follows:

Our loss is not very heavy for the position we have gained. The rebels make a firm resistance. I think. we shall have the place to-morrow.

[Homer_J_Simpson]

Free Republic University, Department of History presents U.S. History, 1861-1865: Seminar and Discussion Forum
The American Civil War, as seen through news reports of the time and later historical accounts

First session: November 21, 2015. Last date to add: May 2025.
Reading: Self-assigned. Recommendations made and welcomed.

Posting history, in reverse order

https://www.freerepublic.com/tag/by:homerjsimpson/index?tab=articles

To add this class to or drop it from your schedule notify Admissions and Records (Attn: Homer_J_Simpson) by reply or freepmail.

Link to previous New York Times thread

https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/4156023/posts

[Homer_J_Simpson]

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[Homer_J_Simpson]

The Siege of Vicksburg: Another Line of Defences Discovered in the Rear of the City – 2-3
Threatened Invasion of the North: The War to be Transferred to the Loyal States – 3
From the Army of the Potomac: Important Orders Issued by Gen. Hooker – 3
The War in the Far West: The Yeager Raid – 3-4
News from Washington: Our Special Washington Dispatches – 4
Editorial: Rebel Threat of Invasion – 4-5
Editorial: Commerce on the Mississippi – 5-6
Confederate Bonds – 6
The Utica Gathering – 6

[BroJoeK]

As we discussed, here are Grant's initial assaults on Vicksburg listed as Confederate victories, though historians never do that because it would mean the statement, "Grant never lost a battle" is not quite right.

However, I'm not listing only campaigns and battles, but also relatively minor engagements, of which Grant's assaults on Vicksburg certainly qualify.

Mississippi 1862-'63 Engagements

Date	Engagement	Military Units	Losses	Victor
April 29 - May 30, 1862	Corinth, MS	Union Army of the Mississippi (Halleck, Grant, Thomas, Buel ~120,000), Confederate Army of the Mississippi (Beauregard, Bragg, Van Dorn ~65,000)	Union 1,000+ total, Confederates 1,000+ total	USA
Sep 1	Denmark, MS	Union Army of the Missippi, (Dennis ~1,000), Confederate Army of the West (Armstrong -4,000)	Union 108-total (8-killed), Confederates 288 total (11=killed)	CSA
Sep 19-20	Iuka, MS	Union Army of Mississippi (Rosecrans, ~4,500), Confederate Army of the West (Price, ~3,179)	Union 790-total (144-killed), Confederates 1,516-total (263-killed)	USA
Oct 3-4	Corinth, MS	Union Army of MS (Rosecran s, 12,000), Confederate Army of West TN (Van Dorn, Price ~22,000)	Union 2,520-total (355-killed), Confederates 4.233-total (473-killed)	USA
Dec 27-29	Chickasaw Bayou, MS	Union Army of TN, MS Squadron (Sherman ~30,720), Confederate Dept of MS (Pemberton, SD Lee~13,792)	Union 1,776-total (208-killed), Confederates 187-total (57-killed)	CSA (CSA outnumbered
Apr 29, 1863	Grand Gulf, MS	Union Mississippi squadron (Porter 7-ironclads ~10,000), Confederate Army of Vicksburg batteries (Bowen 4,200)	Union 80-total (24-killed), Confederates 22-total (3-killed)	CSA (Grant changed his plans)
Apr 29	Snyder's Bluff, MS	Union XV Corps, Mississippi squadron (Sherman 8-gunboatss ~10,000), Confederate Herbert's Brigade (Herbert 3,000)	Union unkwn-total (unkwn-killed), Confederates unkwn-total (unkwn-killed)	CSA (Union feint to fix CSA forces)
May 1	Port Gibson, MS	Union Army of TN (Grant ~23,000), Confederate Army of Vicksburg (Bowen, ~8,000)	Union 861-total (129?-killed), Confederates 787-total (118?-killed)	USA
May 12	Raymond, MS	Union Army the Tennessee (McPherson 12,000), Confederate Army of Vicksburg (Gregg, 4,000)	Union 446-total (67?-killed), Confederates 515-total (77?-killed)	USA
May 14	Jackson, MS	Union Army the Tennessee (Grant, Sherman, McPherson ~30,000), Confederate Army of Vicksburg (Johnson, Gregg, 5,000?)	Union 332-total (48?-killed), Confederates 850-total (127?-killed)	USA
May 16	Champion Hill, MS	Union Army the Tennessee (Grant, McClernand, Sherman, McPherson 32,000), Confederate Army of Vicksburg (Pemberton 22,000)	Union 2,457-total (410-killed), Confederates 3,840-total (381-killed)	USA
May 17	Big Black River Bridge, MS	Union Army the Tennessee XIII Corps (McClernand, 5,000), Confederate Army of Vicksburg (Bowen Vaugn, 5,000)	Union 275-total (41?-killed), Confederates 1,751-total (262?-killed)	USA (Union outnumbered)
May 19-22	Assault on Vicksburg	Union Army of the TN (Grant, Sherman 77,000), Confederate Army of Mississippi (Pemberton, 33,000)	Union 4,141-total (659-killed), Confederates 580-total (75-killed)	CSA (CSA Outnumbered)

Summary of Civil War Engagements as of May 27, 1863:
Engagements in Confederate states:

State	Union Victories	Confederate Victories	Inconclusive	Total Engagements
South Carolina	2	2	1	5
Virginia	10	23	12	52
North Carolina	8	1	1	10
Florida	2	0	0	2
Louisiana	7	1	0	8
Tennessee	9	7	1	17
Arkansas	8	1	2	11
Georgia	1	1	0	2
Mississippi	8	5	0	13
Texas	0	1	0	1
Alabama	1	0	0	1
Total Engagements in CSA	57	50	18	125

Engagements in Union states/territories:

State	Union Victories	Confederate Victories	Inconclusive	Total Engagements
Maryland	3	0	1	4
West Virginia	9	3	2	14
Missouri	14	13	1	28
New Mexico	5	8	0	13
Kentucky	5	6	2	13
Oklahoma	1	3	0	4
Total Engagements in Union	38	33	6	77
Total Engagements to date	95	83	24	202

Grant's assaults on Vicksburg May 19 & 21 cost the Union 85% of the total casualties and killed in action they would experience during the siege which ended July 4.
For Confederates, it was the reverse -- 20% of CSA killed & wounded at Vicksburg happened during Grant's initial assaults.

These bring the war's totals to date, by my count, to over 362,000 casualties, including over 42,000 killed in action.

[Homer_J_Simpson]

historians never do that because it would mean the statement, "Grant never lost a battle" is not quite right.

I'm no historian, but I recall reading about a very early Grant-led engagement (Belmont?) in which he escaped the scene by fancy footwork on his horse's part. That doesn't seem like a victory to me.

[BroJoeK]

"A DISPATCH FROM GEN. HURLBUT.
WASHINGTON, Tuesday, May 26."

Union Maj. Gen. Hurlbut is XVI Corps commander, currently stationed in Memphis, Tennessee, guarding Grant's supply lines from the North.

Included in Hurlbut's XVI Corps are:

1. 5th Division, Brig. Gen. JC Veach Commanding, which includes:
2. 4th Brigade, Col. David Moore Commanding, which includes:
3. 119th Illinois Voluntary Infantry, Col. Thomas Kinney (elected) Commanding, which includes:
4. K Company, Capt. Calvin Johnson Commanding, which includes:
5. My great grandfather, a private who still spoke very little English.

The 119th is "now" assigned to guard duty around the city of Memphis, something they consider to be ideal work, a "happy time" in an otherwise brutal war.

My great-grandfather is now home in Illinois, farming and telling his younger brother about this great Confederate cavalry general, Nathan Bedford Forrest.

Some in my family claim this inspired the younger brother to join the Confederate cavalry.
Others say, naw, that's impossible, it must have been the Union cavalry.
But nobody can find a record of him in the Union cavalry, and that's where it remains...

[BroJoeK]

"I'm no historian, but I recall reading about a very early Grant-led engagement (Belmont?) in which he escaped the scene by fancy footwork on his horse's part.
That doesn't seem like a victory to me."

Maybe you're thinking of the Mexican War in 1846?
At the battle of Monterey, Mexico, under the command of future President, Zachary Taylor:

"Locked in fierce street by street fighting, Grant was forward with several companies when ammunition was nearly gone.
He mounted a horse, kicked a leg over the saddle and hung low on the horse's neck and flank, then raced the animal to the rear.
Then after gaining help and ammunition, he returned under intense fire again, being fired at street by street, and amazingly arrived to resupply his regiment unharmed."

Then there was Shiloh, where Grant lost the first day's fighting but came back to win on day two?

[BroJoeK]

The November 1861 Battle of Belmont, Missouri, is listed as "inconclusive", and Grant himself did not consider it a defeat since it accomplished his purposes:

"The Confederates viewed Belmont as a Southern victory, since Grant had staged an attack and been driven off.
Polk's superior, General Albert Sidney Johnston, remarked that
'The 7th of November will fill a bright gap in our military annals, and be remembered with gratitude by the sons and daughters of the South.'

On the evening of November 7th and the morning of November 8th, Grant recalled the units he had ordered forward in Missouri and Kentucky.
One Union soldier commented,

'Well, Grant got whipped at Belmont, and that scared him so that he countermanded all our orders and took all the troops back to their old stations by forced marches.'[15]

However, Grant viewed the battle very differently.
In his memoirs he states,

'The two objects which the battle of Belmont was fought were fully accomplished.
The enemy gave up all idea of detaching troops from Columbus.
His losses were very heavy for that period of the war.' [16]"

I guess, maybe, "Grant never lost a battle" is not exactly the same as saying, "Grant won every battle".

[Homer_J_Simpson]

No, Battle of Belmont. November 7, 1861.

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[Homer_J_Simpson]

The November 1861 Battle of Belmont, Missouri, is listed as "inconclusive", and Grant himself did not consider it a defeat since it accomplished his purposes

Our replies crossed in the mail.

On reflection, I think that whether Grant won, or failed to lose, every battle is not as important as whether he won the war. According to the chatter I am hearing from my ACW nerd follows here and on FB and Twitter, the answer to that will be in the affirmative.

[Homer_J_Simpson]

Journalistic curiosity. The NYT is beginning to drop the superfluous “h” at the end of Vicksburg in some cases, as in today’s main Page 1 headline, but leaving it in place in other headlines and on the editorial page. What does it mean?