Posted on 12/23/2022 10:19:59 PM PST by Paul R.
Can supercooled running water freeze due to a pressure change?
Thursday I spent almost all day prepping for our "Arctic blast" that rolled in late in the afternoon. (Most impressive!) Among many other things, I checked to make sure the small thermostatically controlled heating element under our water tank was plugged in. (The wellhouse is part of but outside our house proper.) I ended up getting to sleep around 2 am -- exhausted & filthy I just crashed out on the carpet in the LR. (With all my warm clothes on it was quite comfy.)
I woke up ~8 am: Restroom!! Water (drip) running? Great! Outside temp on our back porch? -9 F, and still windy. Check the chicken house -- those birds may be dumb, but they are still all inside... Plenty of food still in feeders. I should be inside too and take my own advice...
Really should clean up! Fire up the in-wall heater in the bathroom (tends to get chilly in there overnight). Accelerate process by starting shower on "hot". Brush teeth. I'm almost done with the tooth brushing - water running @ sink too, total GPM probably ~ 2-2.5 gpm, and... the water slows and dies. What???!!!
Put dirty clothes back on, go investigate. Well pump gauge shows 38 lbs. pressure. (It kicks on around 35 psi or so. Pump has power. The pipes seem intact, but the electrical warming wrap feels cold - must have failed. The heating element under the tank is warm, but tank is still darn cool.
I get a small fan type space heater & set it up to blow warm air on the pipes. 10(?) minutes later, we have running water again, pipes are all ok. WHEW!
Take that shower / bath and warm my cold bones!
Best I can figure is that the water in the well (pressure) tank was nearly(?) supercooled and at ~45 psi (where it'd top out when refilling). Exiting the tank, the pipes would have been even colder, and there'd be some pressure decrease down the length of pipe (plus tank pressure was falling). Somehow, significant flow (as opposed to the drip) triggered an abrupt freeze-up. Could the pressure drop do that?
I’ve also pulled an ice cube tray out of the freezer, the water in it still not frozen, and suddenly some cubes partially freeze, sometimes even generating little ice stalagmites or bumps upward...
Yes...Thank God you’re a country boy and your name isn’t Sue. lol
https://www.iflscience.com/new-record-coldest-freezing-point-of-water-61911
Lots of university dollars chasing record low supercooled water, most can get to around -40 degrees. Usually need high water purity, low agitation, and controlled wall effects to get there.
Flowing water from well or municipal system will have little super cooling. Best theory is rapid depressuring releases dissolved gases, which takes heat from the water. I suspect ice was already forming and causing a narrow, choke spot in the piping. That’s my 40 years of engineering in oil and gas business, where this type of phenomenon can cost millions per incident.
I don’t trust the lightbulb idea because they burn out without warning.
How about two different brands of heat tape at the same time, checking each one every season, or multiple LED bulbs to equal the heat of an incandescent?
If the distance isn’t too great you can put a sensor from your thermometer in the house into the mix, to be able to know everything is working.
Here are some chicken coop heaters.
https://www.amazon.com/chicken-coop-heater/s?k=chicken+coop+heater
Correct, I have a wide creek running through my property alone with ponds now we as a general rule do not get super low temps but in the last 3 years we have gotten down to zero twice but neither has frozen as the water is moving. Water in a confined space and not moving will freeze every time.
Back in the 60s, I heard the term “triple point” for water - where it seemed to be liquid but wasn’t really any of the 3 states (liquid/solid/gas).
Pretty much that when water was at the freezing point but hadn’t solidified yet, just taping the container would set up enough vibration to release the last amount of “heat” and it would instantly crystalize.
More scientific explanation: https://www.thermal-engineering.org/what-is-triple-point-of-water-definition/
In Central Lake Michigan I insulated my cinder block well pit. Down to -35° and no issues. I used 2” of hard foam for the roof. It was never under 36°.
Escaping gases will chill the water. That's what happens when you open a very cold can of carbonated beverage. The CO2 escapes, taking heat with it, and the beverage freezes.
To learn more, look for "water phase diagram."
Two light bulbs, with one in a light sensor socket. If the bulb int the standard socket burns out, the other in the light sensor socket switches on.
If you're checking on it every week or so and find the bulb out, move the working bulb in the light sensor socket to the standard socket and put the new bulb into the light sensor socket.
If not sockets, you can buy a light sensor plug. Some, like the ones for Christmas decorations, have a timer and remote controller:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0711DT17X?pd_rd_i=B0711DT17X&pf_rd_p=b000e0a0-9e93-480f-bf78-a83c8136dfcb&pf_rd_r=GX96WE2B5MQ9PRF5F57V&pd_rd_wg=YVqmV&pd_rd_w=E1mZb&pd_rd_r=595ff8e6-e82d-46f6-a0fb-daf54a991f25
We’re several hundred miles away for the next week. We live on the east coast where it’s very cold but not dangerous. Single digits.
The heat is turned down but above freezing.
My house has a hall valve on the water main. We shut the system down when we leave so if a pipe does crack, it’s not a big deal.
Water is considered to be incompressible. Pressure changes probably not the answer. If it was super-cooled and static, then just adding motion in the form of flow could maybe kick of crystallization.
I’ve seen that when using DISTILLED water in ice cube trays.
Shoddy plumbing in shoddy unheated buildings will always fail.
A properly installed plumbing system INCLUDES the necessary construction to prevent freezing.
BUILDINGS MUST BE HEATED!
Heat tapes should NEVER be necessary.
I seem to recall that water is most dense at about 4 degrees C. That might make the physics of a freezing pond even more complicated and interesting.
4 degrees Celsius was my recollection, too.
Internet confirms.
“Ever leave a bottle of pop in the freezer to get cold, you take it out and does not look to be frozen, untill you pop the cap then it instantly freezes. Same theory. Liquid under pressure has a lower freezing point, when pressure is released, liquid will freeze.”
Pressure has an insignificant effect on the freezing point.
“Escaping gases will chill the water. That’s what happens when you open a very cold can of carbonated beverage. The CO2 escapes, taking heat with it, and the beverage freezes.”
The dissolved gases lower the freezing point. When pressure is removed, the freezing point rises and the liquid freezes.
“If his pump is cavitating and then compressing gases , then when you open the tap the gasses bubble up which draws up energy and cools the water perhaps”
Net-net, the pump heats up the water.
Well, sorry, best I could afford was a older house with an external (attached) wellhouse. I had plans to add on and enclosed the wellhouse in the “living space”, but, funds and energy went to helping with parent care.
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