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Zelensky's three step peace plan w/Brian Berletic from The New Atlas and Gonzalo Lira (Live)
The Duran ^ | December 13, 2022 | The Duran

Posted on 12/13/2022 6:36:33 AM PST by Cathi

Interesting live stream round table analyst discussion of where the Ukraine war is now and how it is likely to end.

These analysts agree that there is not likely to be "big arrow" moves, but rather grinding of Ukraine with slow Russian territorial gains and continued huge Ukrainian casualties. They see no possibility of a negotiated settlement and are particularly critical of Angela Merkle's recent disclosure that the Minsk agreements were always a sham in order to buy time for Ukraine to prepare for war. They believe Russia has come to the conclusion that the West can never be trusted and Russia has now turned permanently toward the East.

Ukraine is out of manpower, out of weapons, out of fuel and electricity, short of water and food with a collapsed currency and economy.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Chit/Chat; History; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: agitprop; berletic; bloggertrash; brianberletic; china; gonzalolira; itistolaugh; lira; putinkeywordtrolls; putinlovertrollsonfr; putinsbuttboys; putinworshippers; russia; russiakeywordtrolls; ukraine; unitedstates; whyisshenotbanned; whyisshestillhere; whykeywordtrolls; zot; zottherussiantrolls
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To: delta7

‘I can’t grasp how the war cheerleaders some how see Ukraine’s de- energizing, de- population, crippled manufacturing, exports, currency, infrastructure and economy as “ winning”.’

You can’t grasp it because you still have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the conflict. As long as Ukraine continues to exist, Russia can’t win, and if Russia can’t win, then Ukraine wins by default. And Russia is not capable of conquering Ukraine, so they’ve already lost, they just can’t admit it yet.


21 posted on 12/13/2022 8:24:04 AM PST by Boogieman
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To: pierrem15

Ukraine has won the Propaganda war—with Zelensky playing a defiant Churchill. Great theater—with drone strikes making news all over. Ukraine has won the money war, hauling in Billions of Bucks, Pounds, Marks and Coin.
Ukraine has also won the political war gaining support from the Western Nations and the United States. BUT has she won the real war—that bloodbath that goes on day after day. Well, not so much. Russia made some blunders and got a bloody nose, but the more they fight the better they get. It now becomes a terrible repeat of World War One—a war of Attrition. Which nation has the most will to fight? In this Russia holds all the cards. The west, and the United States has a long history of losing interest, and just pulling out, think, Hong Kong, Think Kabul. Ukraine may well fall from within with a civil war in Ukraine and a new Democratic Government. Russia too could fall apart—but with a long history of autocratic rule that seems doubtful. When things go south in Russia—they turn to a strong man to fix things. No, Putin may well die, but will Russian Imperialism? No.


22 posted on 12/13/2022 8:25:07 AM PST by Forward the Light Brigade ( Ride to the sound of the Guns!)
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To: Cathi
You can't get a much better group of analysts about the war together in one video.

This definitely worth watching for anyone interested in the truth about what is going in the war in Ukraine.

23 posted on 12/13/2022 8:25:56 AM PST by Kazan
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To: Renfrew

Hey Delta. In this thread you were absolutely certain that Russia would not give up Kherson:
———-
The war is not over, let’s wait and see who gets what at it’s conclusion -this war will end on Putin’s terms. More than a few towns have been taken ,lost, then re- taken.


24 posted on 12/13/2022 8:29:25 AM PST by delta7
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To: tlozo

Oh, he lives in Ukraine, but you made sure to try and smear him . You sound like a freaking Bidenist.


25 posted on 12/13/2022 8:33:13 AM PST by dforest
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To: delta7

My Brothers mother in law still lives in Marioupol. She wouldn’t leave the home she’s lived in all her life. Like many survivors, she blames Zelensky for the destruction of the city. His no retreat order, His order making everyone a fighter for Ukraine, and the use of basements in apartment buildings, hospitals,schools, and factories for their headquarters by the militia battalions, just drew Russian artillery fire on the locations. They militia would move into a basement, put “We’re Not Here” signs up so the residents wouldn’t post , text, or tweet about their position, meanwhile they would put radio antenna’s on the roof to get a good signal out. The artillery would start impacting the area within a few hours, and the militia would move to a new location while the Russians would pound the building until it was destroyed. Thankfully the rest of the family finally got out. While Zelensky wouldn’t let them evacuate before the Russians closed the city, the Russians allowed them to leave after the city fell. The Russians let those who wanted to leave go into Russia, take a train to Belorussia, then cross the border into Poland. The US wouldn’t let them in, so they found a friend to stay with.
Gotta Love Blinken, Austin, and Biden, there’s never a responsibility they can’t ignore and walk away from.


26 posted on 12/13/2022 8:33:17 AM PST by Waverunner
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To: dforest
Oh, he lives in Ukraine, but you made sure to try and smear him .

Many people live in Ukraine. Gonzalo Lira Is a pro-Putin shill and a sleazebag.

27 posted on 12/13/2022 8:51:20 AM PST by tlozo (Better to Die on Your Feet than Live on Your Knees)
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To: Waverunner
Like many survivors, she blames Zelensky for the destruction of the city

Most Ukrainians accurately blame Putin and his russian soldiers for the destruction of Ukraine.

28 posted on 12/13/2022 8:53:39 AM PST by tlozo (Better to Die on Your Feet than Live on Your Knees)
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To: tlozo; Cathi; silverleaf; aMorePerfectUnion; norsky; Forward the Light Brigade; Kazan; dforest; ...

I agree that Lira has a dodgy background (”The Duran” duo, too). I would never take anything he said at face value (same goes for The Duran duo).

That said, we have behaved as tricksters when it comes to wars that prop up NATO. (Lisbon in 1992, Rambouillet in 1999 and Minsk in 2014):

We sabotaged the Lisbon Agreement in 1992 (when there was talk about NATO, our fave lever of power, having lost its raison d’être and we were all into the supposed “end of history” and proving we were The Indispensable Nation):

*****
“On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Bosnian Serbs and Mate Boban for the Bosnian Croats. On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia. What was said and by whom remains unclear. Warren Zimmermann denied that he told Izetbegović that if he withdrew his signature, the United States would grant recognition to Bosnia as an independent state. What is indisputable is that on the same day Izetbegović withdrew his signature and renounced the agreement.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_proposed_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_War#Carrington%E2%80%93Cutileiro_plan

******

Under Clinton’s Dayton Accords of 1995, the Bosnian Muslims got slightly *less* territory than under Lisbon. There had been a few other peace plans floated between Lisbon and Dayton, but the US always objected the Bosnian Muslims did not get enough map. I’ll never forget the look on Izetbegovic’s face at Dayton. All that death and destruction, only to end up with less.

In 1999 we sabotaged the Rambouillet Agreement (Kosovo) when the odious Madcow Albright whipped out Annex B when the FR Yugoslavia delegation was about to sign off on it:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23607665

No sovereign nation could possibly agree to such a thing. As you can read, Annex B called for NATO military occupation of the entire FRY (which consisted of Serbia and Montenegro at the time) not just Serbia’s province of Kosovo. Bombs away!

For some reason, we no longer cared about Annex B after bombing the daylights out of Serbia for 78 days, as the Kumanovo Agreement was very much the same as Rambouillet, but minus that pesky Annex B. (The 1999 bombing of Serbia — which was in violation of both the NATO Charter and the UN Charter — was the last straw for the Russians and was a major factor in bringing Putin to power.)

We also laughed at UN Resolution 1244 and recognized Kosovo’s independence (declared in violation of 1244). Neither we nor the NATO troops still babysitting Kosovo to this day have ever tried to implement 1244, let alone enforce it. It was just another sham.

Then we played the same game with the Minsk agreement. It was already obvious, but lest anyone doubt, Merkel just admitted it. I wonder how the French feel about her admission?

We also lied back in 1990 when we assured Gorby that we would not expand NATO. It’s no wonder Putin finds us untrustworthy.


29 posted on 12/13/2022 9:04:28 AM PST by CatHerd (Whoever said "All's fair in love and war" probably never participated in either.)
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To: CatHerd
We also lied back in 1990 when we assured Gorby that we would not expand NATO

Stop posting russian BS. Gorbachev in a 2014 interview stated their was no such promise. In fact the topic of “NATO expansion” was not discussed at all.

Why? Because in 1990 nobody thought the Warsaw Pact would fall apart.

https://www.rbth.com/international/2014/10/16/mikhail_gorbachev_i_am_against_all_walls_40673.html

30 posted on 12/13/2022 9:15:49 AM PST by tlozo (Better to Die on Your Feet than Live on Your Knees)
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To: All

I posted this yesterday....

https://t.me/CyberspecNews

This isn’t officially confirmed and it probably won’t be

⚡️ 🇷🇺 🇮🇷 Iran has agreed to supply up to 6,000 unmanned aerial vehicles (mainly “Shahid”), ballistic missiles and to carry out technical supervision of the planned plant for the production of unmanned aerial vehicles, which is expected to be located in Tatarstan.

Russia will pay up to $1 billion and offer other, as yet unknown incentives.
/#Russia #Iran/

✅ @khayalpressa31

___________________________

Today.... (apparently another shipment coming in)

https://t.me/i20028843

💥💥💥
Iranian cargo plane heading to Moskva.
💥💥💥


31 posted on 12/13/2022 9:16:29 AM PST by Cathi
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To: Forward the Light Brigade
Russia has only a 4:1 advantage in manpower. All Ukraine has to do is kill 5:1 and they're the last man standing.

Infrastructure destruction on the civilian population has a lot less effect than the Russian's seem to think: it didn't work against Britain, Germany or Japan in WWII. In Ukraine it has the perverse effect from the Russian perspective of freeing up more Ukrainian manpower for the UA as civilian jobs disappear.

As far as Western support goes, we are barely lifting a finger.

My guess is the war will end only after Russia withdraws at least to its Feb 23 lines, and the end result will be a massively armed Ukraine inside NATO, who will inevitably get together with Poland and start running centrifuges as soon as possible.

32 posted on 12/13/2022 9:22:50 AM PST by pierrem15 ("Massacrez-les, car le seigneur connait les siens" )
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To: tlozo

No, I am not lying or posting Russian BS. In that interview Gorbachev stated “The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990.”

Both sides can mince words until the cows come home without reaching agreement. So enough of that. Also, if they thought the Warsaw pact would not fall apart, what was with the talk of German reunification? Was East Germany not a member of the Warsaw Pact?

I notice you conveniently ignored everything else in my post.


33 posted on 12/13/2022 9:31:54 AM PST by CatHerd (Whoever said "All's fair in love and war" probably never participated in either.)
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

Globalist own the propaganda

They didn’t win anything

They suppress alternate info as misinformation

Just watch the Z bots here


34 posted on 12/13/2022 9:37:51 AM PST by wardaddy (Biden Fetterman 2024 ..it’s a no-brainer!)
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To: CatHerd
No, I am not lying or posting Russian BS. In that interview Gorbachev stated “The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990.”

Seriously? A 'violation of the spirit of statements and assurances'

Putin violates repeatedly in 2014 and 2022, the 1994 Budapest Memorandum that Russia signed, promising “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “to refrain from the threat or use of force” against the country.

35 posted on 12/13/2022 9:44:53 AM PST by tlozo (Better to Die on Your Feet than Live on Your Knees)
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To: Boogieman

Ah, the ol’ US winning strategy, used in Vietnam and Afghanistan

Declare victory and GTH outa Dodge leaving desperate former allies clinging to aircraft wheel wells, crash landing in stolen aircraft, or heading into pirate-infested waters in leaky boats. Or as in Iraq, pumping oil for Chinese buyers

Yes, we have taught the Russians everything we know about winning wars since 1953


36 posted on 12/13/2022 9:47:21 AM PST by silverleaf (“Freedom ultimately means the right of other people to do things that you disagree with”. T. Sowell )
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To: pierrem15

The manpower advantage is with Ukraine…but that doesn’t mean they are a wartime match for Russian artillery

That’s how and why Ukes keep feeding any men under 60 they can grab off the street into meatgrinders along the front

Even an unenlightened observer can see this


37 posted on 12/13/2022 9:52:12 AM PST by silverleaf (“Freedom ultimately means the right of other people to do things that you disagree with”. T. Sowell )
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To: Renfrew

What makes you think retreat is a permanent surrender?
All those men who retreated are alive to keep fighting.

Remember when the Russians retreated from Moscow?

When did Zelensky ever retreat and save the lives of his men to fight another day?

Hold the gloating for at least a while..


38 posted on 12/13/2022 9:57:06 AM PST by silverleaf (“Freedom ultimately means the right of other people to do things that you disagree with”. T. Sowell )
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To: pierrem15

>>>>pierrem15 wrote “All Ukraine has to do is kill 5:1 and they’re the last man standing.”<<<<<

Easier said than done. And there’s also this thing called a Pyrrhic victory. Both sides are in danger of winning such a victory.

>>>>pierrem15 wrote “Infrastructure destruction on the civilian population has a lot less effect than the Russian’s seem to think: it didn’t work against Britain, Germany or Japan in WWII. In Ukraine it has the perverse effect from the Russian perspective of freeing up more Ukrainian manpower for the UA as civilian jobs disappear.”<<<<<<

If that’s true, why haven’t the US and NATO got the memo? We destroy infrastructure all the time when attacking. True, it does not always dampen the spirits of civilians, and can even steel their resolve and defiance. We bombed Serbia’s infrastructure over and again in 1999. After a point, when we ran out of targets, we started bombing the rubble of previous targets. And yes, the Serbs were still dancing on bridges and barbecuing on rooftops with targets pinned to their backs in defiance. Inat, Serbs are famous for it.

However, when such measures cause civilians to flee (as they do in a Ukrainian winter), this is to the attacking force’s advantage. It’s always to to an attacking force’s advantage to get civilians out of the way. It’s also to the attacking force’s advantage when destruction of infrastructure hampers the defending force (and vice versa — which is why defenders sometimes blow up their own stuff to hamper an invader).

>>>>pierrem15 wrote “My guess is the war will end only after Russia withdraws at least to its Feb 23 lines, and the end result will be a massively armed Ukraine inside NATO, who will inevitably get together with Poland and start running centrifuges as soon as possible.”<<<<<

If that’s the case, then this will be a never-ending war.

And forget those centrifuges. No one will countenance a nuclear Ukraine. You’d have to be out of your mind.


39 posted on 12/13/2022 9:58:01 AM PST by CatHerd (Whoever said "All's fair in love and war" probably never participated in either.)
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To: CatHerd
And forget those centrifuges. No one will countenance a nuclear Ukraine. You’d have to be out of your mind.

And if Ukraine survives, who will stop them? They're far more capable technologically than the Russian's especially give them credit for. If Israel and South Africa could do it with far less resources, I don't see why Ukraine, Poland and South Korea couldn't do the same. There's a whole host of middle-sized powers that are probably eyeing the bomb right now.

And for that, you can blame Russia.

40 posted on 12/13/2022 10:03:46 AM PST by pierrem15 ("Massacrez-les, car le seigneur connait les siens" )
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