Posted on 11/12/2022 7:44:47 AM PST by lowbridge
Thank you for explaining that Catholics don't deify Mary.
I hope you will continue to spread that truth throughout the forum.
Love,
O2
Mary can hear no prayers. Period.
Daniel; please review my post #7.
That’s gonna be an awkward holiday dinner this year :)
That’s gonna be an awkward holiday dinner this year :)
>Mary can hear no prayers. Period.
That’s silly. I don’t know boo about your denomination but I’m going to guess you’re OK with the Apostle’s creed which says in part that we believe in “the communion of saints” which is all of us Christians.
Secondly Jesus reminded the Sadducees that life is ongoing: “Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Mark 12:26-27, NIV)
If as living Christians we are encouraged to pray for one another — for instance if I knew you were ill, I could pray for you, or vice versa, or us for this convert, etc. — then the same can be true of those in Heaven. (Except they’re closer to the Source now). So certainly those Christians formerly on earth can hear us, being alive and not dead.
I’m guessing what you wish to communicate is that one cannot pray to Mary as to God, and that’s quite right. Among the people one could ask to pray on your behalf, she’s in this unique position, being the person whose positive response at the Annunciation allowed God to use her as the means by which He came into the world to save us. I don’t think it’s a big stretch to say she is the first and best Christian.
And among Catholic prayers you’ll find that exemplified. One might read “Holy Mary, pray for us” (not we pray to you as one who has God’s power or is God) or “most gracious advocate.”
Certainly one ought to stay on the right side of that line, but in my actual experience (vs. Catholics saying things they think Protestants think or Protestants saying things they think Catholics think) I’ve not encountered actual people mixing it up.
“I didn’t realize that religion is a competition.”
Of course it is!
That’s why I don’t have “religion”, I have “FAITH” in the the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
NOT, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and the mother.
Mary was a nice girl that God chose to birth His human Son. A trial to be sure. A significant figure in history.
NOT TO BE WORSHIPPED AS DEITY!
Every praise and worship of Mary is STOLEN from the praise and worship of JESUS!
“the Virgin Mary ‘is my most beautiful love’”
JESUS is supposed to be your “most beautiful love”.
most definition: 1. the biggest number or amount of; more than anything or anyone else:
“more than ANYONE else”
So he loves Mary more than Jesus. Pathetic.
Vicar of Christ
is
anti Christ
Look up the meaning of the words.
Come out of her, and into the arms of The true Father and His Son, Jesus The Christ.
That’s a terrible statement to make. The Blessed Mother said Yes to God, and nurtured the Son of God for 30 years. Jesus surely loves Her. Aren’t we supposed to be imitators of Christ?
First - consider Luke 1:43 .
Christians who demean, belittle and marginalize Mary, I believe are very wrong! The mother of Christ certainly is unique and special in the body of Christ. To say she doesn't hold a unique relationship with her Son is beyond credulity.
Mary is not deified by Catholics but rather venerated. I would agree that the extreme Catholic theology that makes Mary God-like is wrong.
A problem that has faced the body of Christ is that of authority. Most Protestant denominations cite the Bible as the sole authority, while Catholics express tradition and scripture as their authority. The fact is that the Catholic church created the current canon of the Bible. You could say Catholic bishops through Church counsels were responsible for discerning and codifying what books and letters constitute divinely inspired scripture. In this sense Catholic tradition, i.e., Church counsels made of Bishops/men framed what you and I today call the Bible.
I believe Mary is the Mother of Christ/God - Luke 1:43. I believe with most of Christendom that Christ's divine and human nature was not and is not divided. I admit, how this works is a mystery to me. Somewhat related is how the Catholic church views the body of Christ. They don't separate the body as those in heaven and earth. They see a communion of saints consisting of those saved in heaven and earth. Christians are in general agreement that we are to pray one for another; that we are to interceded one for another. Many Protestant churches get offended when Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics pray to saints in heaven. If Christ is the sole mediator as we often hear, why ask anyone on earth or in heaven to pray for you?
Just some random thought from someone seeing through a glass darkly.
Shalom!
Jesus embodies peace and love and conveys that message in a world in revolt to the Father.
Mary was just another fallible human being whom Jesus needed to save like everyone else.
You might want to consider Matthew 12:46-50. While Jesus certainly had a special relationship with her and while on the cross He fulfilled his family obligation to ensure someone would provide for her, He also marginalized her spiritual significance in this passage.
Mary does not have some special access to Jesus above and beyond other believers in heaven. She's isn't omnipresent. She isn't omniscient. She doesn't have any role in our salvation and isn't some kind of mediatrix (as Vatican II claims.)
We pray for each other because we are repeatedly told to do so. We don't pray people who are dead (in a physical sense) because we are not told to do so, and attempts to contact the dead are frowned upon (Leviticus 20:27, 1 Samuel 28)
Thank you for explaining that Catholics don't deify Mary. I hope you will continue to spread that truth throughout the forum.
Paul instructed "learn in us not to think of men above that which is written," (1 Corinthians 4:6) and it is that of thinking of Mary far, far far above that which is written that has been often rightly reproved throughout much of the forum.
First - consider Luke 1:43 .
Which simply does not correspond to thinking of Mary far, far far above that which is written. For one, 1 Timothy 2:5 states that “For *there is* one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” and by Him believers have “boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus. (Hebrews 10:19 And there is simply not even one example of the presumably (by Catholics) common basic practice of believers praying to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) among the over 200 prayers by believers in Scripture, or instructions on who to address.
Which manner of "adulation" could constitute worship in Scripture (Words for worship in the NT (http://peacebyjesus.net/Words_used_for_worship.html), yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.
The practice of praying to departed saints and Mary was one that developed, helped by pagan influences, for Scripture provides no example of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven by the Lord, and reveals that doing otherwise was a practice of pagans, including to the “Queen of Heaven.” (Jer. 44:17-19, 25). The Catholic Encyclopedia speculates that a further reinforcement of Marian devotion,
"was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. This at least is the common opinion among scholars, though it would perhaps be dangerous to speak too positively. Evidence regarding the popular practice of the early centuries is almost entirely lacking...,” (Catholic Encyclopedia > Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary)
Mary is not deified by Catholics but rather venerated.
Word games. Claiming Mary is not being worshiped because you do not use a certain word for it simply does not negate what is often too obvious. One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing supernatural attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them.
Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?
A problem that has faced the body of Christ is that of authority. Most Protestant denominations cite the Bible as the sole authority, while Catholics express tradition and scripture as their authority. The fact is that the Catholic church created the current canon of the Bible. You could say Catholic bishops through Church counsels were responsible for discerning and codifying what books and letters constitute divinely inspired scripture. In this sense Catholic tradition, i.e., Church counsels made of Bishops/men framed what you and I today call the Bible.
Your parroted propaganda polemic means relies on some pseudo history and illogic. Here is some help that illustrates this:
My Protestant friends say that Catholicism is a man-made religion. How do I answer them?
If they tell you that,
distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels):
then tell them that,
2 Thessalonians 2:15 says the pillar and support of the truth is the church, and that Paul enjoined the disciples to obey the traditions which they had been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
If they persist by responding that,
men such as the apostles who could speak as well as write as wholly inspired-of-God, but Catholic theology does not consider that popes and Catholic ecumenical councils do so in declaring oral tradition to be the Deposit of faith/the word of God;
then assert that,
The “believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities..." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium) "People cannot discover the contents of revelation…They have to be told by people who have received in from on high."(Cardinal Avery Dulles, SJ, "Magisterium: Teacher and Guardian of the Faith, p. 72) and that the Catholic church gave them the Bible, and therefore it only consists of and authoritatively means what their magisterium judges it to say. Thus, they need to submit to her.
If they respond by telling you that,
none of the few Greek words in 1 Timothy 3:15 ("church living God pillar and ground the truth") teach that the magisterial office of the church is supreme over Scripture, let alone that of Rome, and both words for “pillar” and “ground” of the truth denote support (apostles were called “pillars”).
And that rather than Rome being necessary to know what is of God, an authoritative body of wholly inspired Scripture had been established by the time of Christ, as manifest by the frequent appeals to Scripture, including "He expounded unto them in all the scriptures) And writings of which provided the prophetic and doctrinal epistemological foundation for the church. Luke 24:27 the things concerning himself.
And that the the church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, to whom conditional obedience was enjoined, (Mt. 23:2 ) as the historical magisterial head over Israel which was the historical instrument and steward of Scripture, Mk. 11:27-33; cf. Dt. 17"8-13) which judgments included which men and writings were of God and which were not,
And that instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16 be , etc.) 2Cor. 12:12 ; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; Acts 2:14-35 ; 39, Jn. 5:36 ; 44, Lk. 24:27 ; Mt. 22:23-45) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis.
Then be consistent and state that,
souls should not have presumed to know what writings were of God, nor men, but should have submitted to the judgment of the historical magisterium and judges of Scripture. But that the Roman Catholic church is as God/Christ, and has presumed to infallibly declare that she is and will be perpetually infallible (protected from error) whenever her pope, or ecumenical council together with the pope, speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula. Which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares, and that she also presumes protection from at least salvific error in non-infallible magisterial teaching.
Thereby you will maintain what is essentially your original premise, that Scripture, Tradition and even history only authoritatively consists of and means what she says.
As no less than Cardinal Manning asserted:
It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine....
I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness. Its past is present with it, for both are one to a mind which is immutable. Primitive and modern are predicates, not of truth, but of ourselves....
The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour. — "Most Rev." Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, Lord Archbishop of Westminster, “The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation,” (New York: J.P. Kenedy & Sons, originally written 1865, reprinted with no date), pp. 227-228)
Or you can repent and believe the gospel of the NT church. In which the redeemed are those who come to God as sinners knowing their desperate need of salvation - not as souls saved by their works or religious heritage, but as destitute of any means or merit whereby they may find salvation - and with a humble and penitent heart (that at least implicitly wants a new life following Christ) believe on the crucified and risen Lord Jesus who alone can save them on His account, by His sinless shed blood and righteousness. (Romans 3:9- 5:1)
And who are thus baptized to follow the Lord Jesus with persevering faith. And who thus are baptized and follow Him (John 10:27-29 ; Acts 8:12 ; Ephesians 1:7 ; 2:8-10) - and effectually repent when they find that they failed to do so. (Psalms 32:5 , 6 ; 51:3; Hosea 5:15 ; 1 John 1:9)
For penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating effectual faith, (Acts 10:43-47 ; 15:7-9) is that which is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5 ) and is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47 ; Jn. 10:27, 28) and by which faith the believer is completely forgiven and "accepted in the Beloved" and positionally seated with Him in Heaven. Ephesians 1:6 ; 2:6; cf. Phil. 3:21)
And wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for those who die in that effectual faith then it is with the Lord, at death or His return (whatever comes first), by the grace of God. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4 ; Rv. 2:7 ]; Phil 1:23 ; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51 ff'; 1Thess. 4:17 ) Thanks be to God.
Stop spewing bigotry over propaganda. Mary is not "praised" or "worshipped."
Nope. Mary was a special case that doesn't fit into Protestant categories.
“Mary was a special case that doesn’t fit into Protestant categories.”
Mary was a special case that doesn’t fit into Scriptural categories. For Aesop, her lore works.
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