Russia cuts gas to Poland as U.S., allies to send Ukraine more heavy weapons

National Post ^ | April 27 2022 | Marek Strzelecki and Tsvetelia Tsolova and Pavel Polityuk

[Elsie]

I shudda read ahead...

[Elsie]

good one!

[cuban leaf]

I’m really sorry, but I really don’t have time to get into the weeds of what could have been done to keep this from happening. It’s a long, protracted and nuanced debate. I’m just of the opinion that the western world’s leadership made very poor choices and this is the result.

And if they are thinking about bringing a knife to a gunfight, they’re doing it wrong.

I’ll throw this out: Putin’s cutting of the gas line is the same as the “sanctions” tactic. That is good. It means the west and Putin are slugging it out right now in non-violent ways - as he pummels Ukraine, of course. But they’re used to it.

[Cronos]

Putin’s cutting of the gas line is the same as the “sanctions” tactic. That is good. It means the west and Putin are slugging it out right now in non-violent ways - as he pummels Ukraine, of course. But they’re used to it

Yes, I agree with you. Better economic warfare than bullets flying

[Kevmo]

If we don’t get nuclear nonproliferation right, we doom the planet.

The ukes are in an existential war. When we were in our existential war we built nukes & used them. Who are we to scold them for building nukes in their own existential war, especially since we betrayed them and they never woulda been invaded if they had kept those nukes?

So it behooves us to get involved and keep it conventional rather than push the Ukes into a nuke corner.

[Ultra Sonic 007]

When we were in our existential war we built nukes & used them.

This is ludicrous hyperbole. Germany had already surrendered in May 1945; the USSR declared war on Japan shortly thereafter. Japan's Pacific holdings had been vastly reduced, and Allied air raids on Japan had caused immense damage. However, ground campaigns to take Japanese territory at Iwo Jima and Okinawa had been done at the cost of immense casualties on both sides; the use of the atomic bomb had been considered tactically as a means of shocking Japan into defeat without the need for more ground campaigns on the Japanese mainland.

But America was not at an "existential threat" from Japan by the time the atomic bombs were dropped.

Who are we to scold them for building nukes in their own existential war, especially since we betrayed them and they never woulda been invaded if they had kept those nukes?

Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons was the price they paid to be internationally recognized as a sovereign nation following the dissolution of the USSR. This has been explained to you before.

So it behooves us to get involved and keep it conventional rather than push the Ukes into a nuke corner.

Notwithstanding that you're mixing apples and oranges (nuclear non-proliferation versus violations of sovereign borders in the course of a war between nations): if nuclear non-proliferation is your biggest concern, then you should be the one most opposed to the West using Ukraine as their proxy for fighting Russia.

[Kevmo]

But America was not at an “existential threat” from Japan by the time the atomic bombs were dropped.
***They were BUILT during that existential threat time. I said explicitly and you even quoted: Who are we to scold them for building nukes in their own existential war

Kevmo: especially since we betrayed them and they never woulda been invaded if they had kept those nukes?
US7troll: Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons was the price they paid to be internationally recognized as a sovereign nation following the dissolution of the USSR.
***See how you blithely — nay, trollfully — just go over that point that they never woulda been invaded if they had those nukes? That’s simply a troll maneuver, one of the reasons you are being treated as a troll.

This has been explained to you before.
***I have explained things to you before, and yet you continue to act as a troll.

Kevmo: So it behooves us to get involved and keep it conventional rather than push the Ukes into a nuke corner.
US7troll: Notwithstanding
***That’s like the 3rd time you’ve used that word. You aint using it correctly. You’re trying to appear smart but it just makes ya look stupid.

that you’re mixing apples and oranges (nuclear non-proliferation versus violations of sovereign borders in the course of a war between nations):
***Those apples and oranges were mixed in the Budapest Accession to the United Nations Nuclear NonProliferation Treaty that the USA signed, Ukraine signed, and Russia signed. Gigantic duhh factor to this.

if nuclear non-proliferation is your biggest concern, then you should be the one most opposed to the West using Ukraine as their proxy for fighting Russia.
***Russia INVADED Ukraine after they relinquished nukes and after oil & gas reserves were discovered there. It is in that very nonproliferation agreement that says all sides are to respect the borders and sovereignty of Ukraine. Invading is not respecting the borders. Pushing back the Russians to those borders IS respecting the borders as well as the spirit of the agreement, removing the temptation for the Ukes to build nukes. So yes, nuke nonproliferation is my biggest concern. What is your biggest concern, being found out that you uphold a priori and circular reasoning, eh troll?

[Ultra Sonic 007]

I'll just leave your utter non-responses (befitting the trollish behavior you project on others) to the historical record for others to see, and let them decide for themselves as to whether or not your interpretations have any weight:

The Budapest Memorandum, as well as the words of the Minsk I and II agreements.

More on the Budapest Memorandum.

On the Lisbon Protocol of Ukraine's accession to the NPT, in which it's made clear that neither the United States nor Russia were ever going to accept Ukraine as a nuclear power, well before the Budapest Memorandum was even a thought.

Additional context in relation to NATO, including the highly inconvenient fact that the Budapest Memorandum was made with a government that got overthrown in the Maidan Revolution in 2014.

I'll let woodpusher's own words (who went through all the legwork of providing the source documents for everyone to see) serve as summary:

____

As shown by the Lisbon Protocol, Ukraine obligated itself to accede to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty long before the Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine did not accede to the NPT for security but, along with Belarus and Khazhakstan, acceded to the NPT as a non-nuclear nation as a condition for obtaining sovereignty.

As shown by Minsk I and Minsk II, Ukraine also took on obligations as part of a ceasefire agreement in 2014-2015, after one of its revolutions which overthrew the lawful government. The Budapest Memorandum was with a government overthrown by subsequent revolution. There is no agreement with the current, post-revolution government of Ukraine.

While you like to maintain that Ukraine should go back to the status quo ante before the Budapest Agreement, that would go back to before they were a recognized sovereign nation. You say they should get their nukes back. The international community was firm, including both the United States and Russia, that none of the breakaway USSR republics would be recognized without acceding to the NPT as a non-nuclear nation. Their only choice was to get rid of them all, or be ostracized. All three got rid of them all. Ukraine tried to make their accession conditional and the United States and Russia firmly rejected the effort. Ukraine rescinded the conditions and acceded to the NPT for recognized sovereign status.

The Budapest Memorandum is not a treaty. It is a diplomatic Memorandum. It contains no obligation by the United States, or anyone, to militarily assist or intervene in case of Ukraine being a victim of aggression. It explicitly provides that such a matter will be referred to the UN Security Council for action. That is what was done.

_____

To which, it must be said, your pithy responses were: "ad infinitum, ad nauseum troll", and "Do you expect me to read all that garbage you keep throwing around in an ad nauseam ad infinitum fashion?"

Because if there's one thing I'd like to call primary sources, it's 'garbage'. /s

[Kevmo]

tag team trolling

Maybe someone from your side will figure out how to deliver info without trolling. I doubt it.

[Kevmo]

I'll just leave your utter non-responses (befitting the trollish behavior you project on others) to the historical record
***Since you came onto the discussion long and well after woodsucker was trolling me, it makes sense to once again point out to you where I stopped reading his [and now yours] wall-of-text tag team trolling bullshiite...
for others to see, and let them decide for themselves as to whether or not your interpretations have any weight: The Budapest Memorandum, as well as the words of the Minsk I and II agreements. More on the Budapest Memorandum. On the Lisbon Protocol of Ukraine's accession to the NPT, in which it's made clear that neither the United States nor Russia were ever going to accept Ukraine as a nuclear power, well before the Budapest Memorandum was even a thought. Additional context in relation to NATO, including the highly inconvenient fact that the Budapest Memorandum was made with a government that got overthrown in the Maidan Revolution in 2014. I'll let woodpusher's own words (who went through all the legwork of providing the source documents for everyone to see) serve as summary: ____ As shown by the Lisbon Protocol, Ukraine obligated itself to accede to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty long before the Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine did not accede to the NPT for security but, along with Belarus and Khazhakstan, acceded to the NPT as a non-nuclear nation as a condition for obtaining sovereignty. As shown by Minsk I and Minsk II, Ukraine also took on obligations as part of a ceasefire agreement in 2014-2015, after one of its revolutions which overthrew the lawful government. The Budapest Memorandum was with a government overthrown by subsequent revolution. There is no agreement with the current, post-revolution government of Ukraine. While you like to maintain that Ukraine should go back to the status quo ante before the Budapest Agreement, that would go back to before they were a recognized sovereign nation. You say they should get their nukes back. The international community was firm, including both the United States and Russia, that none of the breakaway USSR republics would be recognized without acceding to the NPT as a non-nuclear nation. Their only choice was to get rid of them all, or be ostracized. All three got rid of them all. Ukraine tried to make their accession conditional and the United States and Russia firmly rejected the effort. Ukraine rescinded the conditions and acceded to the NPT for recognized sovereign status. The Budapest Memorandum is not a treaty. It is a diplomatic Memorandum. It contains no obligation by the United States, or anyone, to militarily assist or intervene in case of Ukraine being a victim of aggression. It explicitly provides that such a matter will be referred to the UN Security Council for action. That is what was done. _____ To which, it must be said, your pithy responses were: "ad infinitum, ad nauseum troll", and "Do you expect me to read all that garbage you keep throwing around in an ad nauseam ad infinitum fashion?" Because if there's one thing I'd like to call primary sources, it's 'garbage'. /s

[dhs12345]

Lol. Agreed. You can bet that the little idiot would panic if she couldn't charge her cell phone. She is so disconnected from reality. How about something worse — no food, no heat. I bet she has never thought about that.

All of this technology, that she complains about, that makes our lives 100x better could cease in a very short period of time and then what?

[Elsie]

bump