Posted on 01/08/2022 8:11:26 AM PST by DoodleBob
It’s a question those of us in the gun writing business often get asked. “What’s the best caliber for a self-defense handgun?” Those expecting a one-to-three digit answer from me will be disappointed. I respond to their simple question with a complex one. “What is the most powerful cartridge that you can shoot accurately and proficiently that comes in a handgun which is comfortable enough to carry that you’ll carry it all the time?” Depending on the person asking, the answer will vary. For some, it’s a full-sized .357 Mag. or 10 mm Auto. For others, it’s one of the current .380 ACPs offered in a 9 mm-sized handgun. And in certain cases, it’s the .22 LR.
...
Civilians who carry a firearm for self-defense are considering many of the same factors, including ammunition cost and availability, but their most important consideration should be using a firearm that is reliable and that they can consistently hit their target with at self-defense distances. Ballistic advantages goes out the window when your bullet doesn’t connect. Five .22 LRs in the bullseye beat one .44 Mag. that missed completely. To paraphrase famed lawman Bill Jordan, ballistics are fine, but accuracy is final.
Recoil is one factor that can hamper accuracy. Even cartridges on the lower end of the power spectrum, like the .380 ACP, can produce a lot of recoil when paired with one of today’s ultralight, micro-compact handguns. Lack of recoil is the .22 LR’s main advantage when it comes to shooting accurately. The topic of the .22 LR as a self-defense cartridge has been fought over and over in digital and print forums.
(Excerpt) Read more at americanrifleman.org ...
Dude, I REALLY encourage you to broaden your thinking and expand your scenarios.
***This thread is about what works for self-defense carry, I REALLY encourage you to FOCUS.
In adrenaline filled physical encounters many people don’t even KNOW they’ve been hit. In many encounters you are dealing with MULTIPLE attackers in various states of consciousness.
***”In many”? How many? Where do you get your statistics. I’ve been trying to find the central repository for trusted gun statistics and there does not appear to be one.
Its obvious you are not a hunter
***This thread is not about hunting.
because hits are NOT 95% of the thing....
***It IS when you are in a gunfight. Not many deer shoot back.
I’m not tracken your deer or bear for you all night. You dont know what in the hell you are talking about.
***You brought deer nonsense to a man-on-man gunfight. You’re the one who does not know what he is talking about.
A 22LR is a GREAT weapon to START to train someone on,
***And a .45 is NOT. Welcome to reasonability.
But who the hell trains someone on a 22lr pistol,tells them, “ok, now you can carry with this...come back next week and we’ll start to work on the 9mm”?
***Who the hell STARTS on carrying a .45?
No one reputable.
***All the reputable articles I read, including this one, say that accuracy is more important than firepower. That makes you the disreputable one.
If youre a newbie and are at a stage where thats the only thing you can operate semi-safely
***I notice that it often takes this long to get gun snobs to start acknowledging facts. Newbies should start at .22lr and a great many of them will never graduate to higher calibers. Even expert hitmen still use .22lr.
and have low experience no way in hell should you be carrying!
***An armed society is a polite society. Newbies, little old ladies, infirm, and wimps all have just as much right to keep and bear arms as you gun snobs do.
WTH...your thought process is WAY oversimplified
***Mine matches the author. And many other authors. And many facts. You are the one overcomplicating this ham sandwich.
and frankly, dangerous to yourself and those around you.
***Frankly, I consider gun snobs like you to be the danger to those around you.
This is all coming from a firearm and ammuntion product development engineer with almost 30 years experience.
***I think you are completely full of shiite here. Best of luck with that. You shoulda picked up far better writing skills over those 30 years of bein’ such an expert.
This will probably fall on deaf ears to you.
***You got it. When I start seein’ 30 years’ worth of real expertise and simple acknowledgement of facts on the ground, my ears will suddenly not seem so deaf to you, short pants.
I don’t have high hopes for you grasshopper.
***I grieve for those other 30 year supposed experts. You guys don’t know the first thing about personal safety, it’s all about ego with you.
I see you’ve gone down the standard bullshiite path of huffin’ and puffin’ rather than simply countering with facts. Whoever taught you to write should be “wipped”[sic]. Take a writing class, Mr. 30-year “expert”.
A .22 it just fine in bear country... : )
Bring a slow friend just in case it does not stop the bear and you have to run.
Lessons from observing 5000 gunfights
https://blog.hsoi.com/2016/12/28/lessons-from-observing-5000-gunfights/
3. He who puts the first shot into meaty bits on the other guy, wins. Not 100%, but darn near,
https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/category/gunfights-and-gunbattles/
In a gunfight, the shooter who first scores a hit above the diaphragm of his opponent is the one who seizes the initiative in the incident. Making a good hit with the FIRST SHOT fired is key to seizing the initiative and then retaining it until the incident is over. No one’s performance improves after he gets shot in a vital area.
Cycle time is longer with the recoil of the 9.
Fire, reaquire... Not as harsh as others, but still...
It’s a bit of a guess, but I’m thinking I could keep a steady bead and deliver at least 8 rds of .22LR into the target zone in the time it’d take to cycle and reaquire the target 5 times with a 9mm.
That, and maybe the prevalence of zipguns.
I’ve heard a story about an undercover cop from the Miami cocaine cowboy days that would sometimes have to meet with a guy on a public beach, wearing a swimsuit, so the guy trusted that he wasn’t wearing a wire. He concealed a micro-pistol in a big plastic cup of red beer that he drank from.
DOJ study can be found HERE
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
in this 1989 study which states:
“Probably more people in this country have been killed by .22 rimfires than all other calibers combined, which, based on body count, would compel the use of .22’s for self-defense.
22 hp is for squirrels. Solids are the way for defense. And there are several 36 to 40 gr loads that will go 12 to 14 inches. Heavy clothing does not impede a 22, the icepick principle comes into play. It’ll sail right through your Carhart, right into the vitals. It has a tendency to go wherever it pleases when it hits bone.
Its also good medicine for pitbulls that attack someone out walking.
For extra fun, go talk to any farmer who traps hogs or dispatches animals. It reliably puts them down.
“The typical .357 magnum bullet is still traveling at more than 1,000 feet per second at 100 yards.
A .451 or .452 inch diameter bullet fired in pistols chambered in .45 ACP and .45 Colt (for example) can slow down to about 600 feet per second at 100 yards. “
Nonsense. You’re obviously not a handloader nor do you actually own or shoot such weapons. A 45 ACP loses about 100fps in 100 yards, not 300fps. It also carries it’s velocity well past 100 yards.
“You don’t want your bullet to cross the street and pass through several walls of a house and hit someone inside who is not the immediate threat to you.”
Dumb thought. That’s a very liberal thought about guns. All rounds can do that. If you are scared of that then don’t carry at all. You might as well say not to drive a car since you might kill someone.
Very true. And I’m willing to bet that they were required to have the right ammo, but put the reduced loads in there because they didn’t like that snap of the .357
No, the agents carried 3 inch Model 13 and 4 inch 686 357s. They were stoked with the Standar FBI load LSWCHP +P .38 Special. It’s a fine load and was not in any way to blame for the FBI fate that day. And in fact, it was that round that ended the fight when Mirelles charged the car with one full cylinder and killed them both.
FBI tried to scapegoat the round, but it was tactics and the fact that they were facing two motivated and constantly practicing ex-soldiers, with shotguns and Mini-14s at conversational distance.
Just trivia, the Soviets murdered 22,000 Polish officers in Katyn Forest. Almost ALL of them were murdered with a Walther Model 8 in 25 acp, shooting lowly ball ammo. The executioner had obtained several of them to use, so the bodies would have been “shot with German gun” in case they were discovered.
Facing a drugged up ape charging from 21 yards
***At 63 feet, he would be well outside the ranges we’ve been discussing in this article.
I like my chances better with 2 or 3 well placed 10mm rounds even over 10 of your well placed 22 rounds for incapacitation, before he gets to you.
***You’re trying to compare hit vs. hit on the casing chart. The essence of this article is that you are more likely to hit the danger with the .22lr , and even your own scenario acknowledges that with 10 well placed rounds versus 2 or 3 well placed rounds. I like my chances just fine.
10mm Muzzle Energy: 400 ft/lbs X3 = 1200 ft/lbs, 3 bleeders
.22lr Muzzle Energy: 100 ft/lbs X10 = 1000 ft/lbs, 10 bleeders
What does it take to get you to focus on what the article actually says? Apparently more than you are capable of.
That is a new one for sure.
There are instances where criminals manage to go through the search procedure without a weapon found and end up shooting an LEO. I saw one of those stories a week or two ago.
With today’s relaxation of the dress code, concealing a sizable weapon is not a problem.
Where years ago bank tellers, businessmen,store clerks and almost any professional dealing with the public, were expected to wear a tailored suit, a tie and a white shirt properly tucked in.
Nowadays if you see a suit it most likely is on a lawyer heading to the court room.
Walk in the bank today and unless you have been there and know the people, you can’t tell the employees from the depositors.
All of that makes concealment really easy. A little more difficult for the ladies, but I know some that carry all the time and you would never know it.
Personally, I carry a 5 shot Ruger LCR in 38+. But, I really think most people should carry a .22 semi automatic with the most rounds on board they can comfortably carry.
First, one should not draw to a pointed firearm unless the distance is a fantasy for both of you. Squeezing off a half dozen rounds at a fantasy distance to defend will usually send a perp the other way I think. If he is close enough, three or four finding their mark will probably do the same. If you are drawing to the drop, you are probably DOA anyway.
And, one does not want to run out of ammo.
But this DOJ link works...
“Studies of the guns used in homi-
cides show that large caliber revolv-
ers are the most frequent type of gun
used in homicides, but the number
of large caliber semiautomatic guns
used in murders is increasing.”
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF
1995 is a transition year from revolvers to what is now the ubiquitous 9mm.
table 2 at this link conclusively debunks any claim of the .22 being used for most killings, and ALSO debunks claims of its effectiveness.
Table 2
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2688536
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