Posted on 07/06/2021 6:58:32 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Green hydrogen is the latest “energy” fad from the global warming warriors.
Today’s hydrogen hype proposes using wind and solar energy to produce “green” hydrogen by electrolysis of water.
It is mainly hot air.
Hydrogen will NEVER be a source of energy. Unlike coal, oil or natural gas, hydrogen rarely occurs naturally – it must be manufactured, and that process consumes far more energy than the hydrogen “fuel” can recover.
It's actually an idea that is quite old and discredited. “Hydro-gen” means “born of water,” but there has been a commercial fuel containing hydrogen that was born of coal. (Maybe it should be called “carbo-gen”?) In the past it was called “town gas.” It was manufactured by heating coal to produce hydrogen, methane and oxides of carbon. The resultant mixture of flammable gases was used for street lighting and domestic heating and cooking.
It was replaced by “clean coal by wire” (electricity), which was less costly and more energy-efficient.
The reality is that all green generators are unreliable and intermittent – they seldom produce rated capacity for more than a few hours. “Green hydrogen” would create a messy scatter of expensive equipment for panels, turbines, roads, power lines, electrolytic cells and specialised storage tanks and freighters - all to produce stop-start supplies of a tricky, dangerous new fuel. Risking capital in such ventures is best suited to unsubsidized and well-insured speculators.
There are other problems.
Australia, where I am, is a huge dry continent. Burning hydro-carbons like coal, oil and gas releases plant-friendly CO2 and water into the atmosphere. (Every tonne of hydrogen in coal produces 9 tonnes of new water as it burns.) However every tonne of green hydrogen extracted using electrolysis will remove more than 9 tonnes of fresh surface water from the local environment.
(Excerpt) Read more at americanthinker.com ...
LOL, no you can’t just make hydrogen fuel.
I’m sure some of the enviro extremists types, having remembered from high school science class that water is H2O, probably think it would be simple to extract the hydrogen from water, and we have entire oceans off the coast, etc. so why can’t we make hydrogen fuel easily?
“Guess they haven’t bothered to observe and calculate the process of making the hydrogen.”
Actually, the cost generating storable hydrogen from solar electricity might be lower than the use of fossil fuels. Depends on the long-term operating costs of the solar-fueled hydrogen generator, tanks and pumps.
Yes something like that. Let's see 140 to 200 psi for liquid propane depending on temperature vs 5000 to 10,000 psi for gaseous hydrogen. I think that is a little more than 4x the pressure. Or if you want to get propane like range you need to cool it to -430 F and then have constant flammable off gassing... and once it heats up it is all gone whether you put any mile on your vehicle or not.
On a different planet in a different universe in a different reality... you might be right.
“Hydro-gen” means “born of water,”
Oceans get tapped for the bonus round sea level lowers.
It is a short fizzle -— there are gobs of videos on youtube out of europe where they are doing official testing on in car hydrogen storage systems, and yes, the pressures at the 10Kpsi range.
These are NOT the 80’s and 90’s tanks.
I suspect as these videos get more visibility with the public, it will soften people to hydrogen.
Personally, I will take torch vs. lithium ion fire.
Yah, do note the difference from the Hindenburg. That was a tremendous bag of gas. A car could hold only a small amount which will burn off in seconds. Unlike gasoline, it dissipates quickly, which quickly decreases the combustible mixture. This would not be like a cooking gas blowup inna house — where the combustible mixture can hang around until someone flips a light switch and you get a spark. Hydrogen is terribly difficult to keep in one place — which is another problem for later.
A fact never mentioned anywhere is a free market is naturally super energy efficient, which is why all unsound ideas run out of replacement energy super fast. Big government is super energy inefficient and sucks limited energy resources out of the economy with little to show for it. To save the Erf, the biggest low hanging fruit to grab first is to slash taxes (energy suck) and government spending (energy burn). Big government lovers: eat them apples.
James May of Top Gear fame recently bought a hydrogen powered car. He admits that there are only 3 filling stations in England so he uses it a a second car. He likes the quiet ride.
He paid $65,000 pounds to be green.
His car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v99AthjW78U
>>For hydrogen to replace coal, oil and gas would require immense quantities of hydrogen, needing huge quantities of reliable electricity to generate it.<<
Not sure that is a correct statement with all due respect. Take a look. A few years ago, a radio station owner was diagnosed with cancer and was researching a way to kill the cancer and not healthy cells...brilliant mind this guy had.
Ended up discovering that if you injected copper sulfide into a hot dog weenie, placed the weenie in the path of high frequency radio waves, the area injected with the copper sulfide would heat up..leaving the remainder of the weenie..unaffected.
I say that to say this. The radio station owner inadvertently discovered a way to agitate hydrogen and oxygen molecules by injecting these same high frequency radio waves on to a beaker of saltwater, thus releasing the hydrogen.
Two universities picked up his research at the end of his life and thereafter...verified the results.
Imagine ocean water being turned to fuel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlML5ZFbwqA
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/canWaterBurn.php
https://www.livescience.com/1861-remarkable-discovery-scientists-burn-saltwater.html
When my solar system finishes paying for itself I'll upgrade it with whatever technology is available for whatever part of my system is at its weakest. With my power bill I calculate how much I'm paying per kWh (minus the flat monthly rate), I then calculate how much I saved that month by the # of kWh I consumed from my solar, and that amount is how much I'm paying toward the HELOC I took out to buy the solar. In the months the HELOC minimum payment is less than the savings I pay extra on the HELOC to pay it off sooner. In the months the HELOC is more, I pull what I need from savings to pay the HELOC and put that money back later when my solar saves me more. In 10 to 15 years (depending on the inflation of energy prices, largely from greeny control freaks pushing up natural gas prices) it'll be paid off and I'll use the monthly savings for upgrades.
If the F-150 Lightning is as good as advertised (it's supposed to be as powerful as a 6-cyl F-150), I'll buy a used one 5 or so years from now and use it as my commuter/family chores/church chores truck. I'll keep a gas car for if we go more than a few hundred miles. But at least part of my power for an EV would be free with my solar. I currently average about 3 hours per day when my batteries are fully charged and have unconsumed power I could be utilizing somewhere else. On the weekends and days I work from home (i.e., the car is parked in my garage during daylight hours), those extra solar hours I'm not using could be charging up my truck. I'd worry less about things like the Dims banning fracking (like Biden is already doing to some degree) and limiting our oil and natural gas options if even my truck is powered by solar (at least some of it).
In a classic Dilbert cartoon, the perpetually gassy Wally is forced to wear a methane collection suit with caudal hose, to power the building.
It is too early to tell, but since such a high percentage of the cost of an Electric Vehicle is from the battery pack and the actual useful life of these huge lithium based battery packs in this application is still a little iffy... many people believe that you are better off buying a new one, especially since the price of lithium based batteries are expected to go up in the future because of increased demand of a limited resource. (Lithium) This type of vehicle is being mandated all over the world.
The two non-video links that you provided were from articles from 2007. The video was not posted on Youtube until 2018 but the actual video was from 2007 as well. Do ya think that maybe if this was something that had promise for producing hydrogen more efficiently than other methods that maybe something might have happened since that time?
>>Do ya think that maybe if this was something that had promise for producing hydrogen more efficiently than other methods that maybe something might have happened since that time?<<
I actually saw the video when first posted on the internet years ago.
To answer your question. I really don’t know. Could there be a possibility this technology has been/would be suppressed or buried because there is too much money in oil/gasoline/natural gas?
People do strange things when their pocket books, corporate revenue/profits are threatened.
Water...salt water, the most plentiful element on the planet. Yea, I could see how there might be individuals that would purchase the technology rights, patent it and bury it for the sake of the almighty $$$.
People have been using this same analogy when it comes to cancer cures and big pharma for years.
Greedy evil people do evil greedy things. Just ask Jesus.
LAVO appears a viable prospect for 2022.
There is Plasma Kinetics which may be soon to market also. It uses a moving metallic hydride ribbon upon spools for storage medium. Light exposure releases stored hydrogen on demand.
The oceans are loaded with lithium. More than humanity could ever use. The Saudis have figured out a way to get at it with high efficiency and low cost. The byproducts of it’s extraction are hydrogen and chlorine gases both of which are more valuable than the lithium itself.
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2021-06/kauo-ech060321.php
The actual science for those capable of understanding it.
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2021/ee/d1ee00354b
“The researchers estimate that the cell would need only US$5 of electricity to extract 1 kilogram of lithium from seawater. The value of hydrogen and chlorine produced by the cell would more than offset this cost, and residual seawater could also be used in desalination plants to provide freshwater.”
UT Austin one of my Alma Mater’s has commercialized this process now I personally as a Hydrogeologist have worked with the beta units of this tech.
https://news.utexas.edu/2018/02/09/new-lithium-collection-method-could-boost-global-supply/
“Produced water from shale gas fields in Texas is rich in lithium. Advanced separation materials concepts such as ours could potentially turn this waste stream into a resource recovery opportunity,” Freeman said.
Each well in the Barnett and Eagle Ford can generate up to 300,000 gallons of produced water per week. Using their new process, Freeman and his team conservatively estimate that from just one week’s worth of produced water, enough lithium can be recovered to power 200 electric cars or 1.6 million smartphones.”
There are over 100,000 active wells in the Permian basin alone every one of them produces burned in a avg six to one water to oil basis. Those wells are as rich or richer in lithium chloride as the Barnett or Eagleford I also have worked both those basins as well.
Tesla and their Chinese partner’s have already crossed the $100 a kWh for LiCoMg chemistry and $80 kwh for LiFePO4 and the iron phosphate cells are the million mile rated ones. 4000 full depth of discharge cycles with 330 miles range is well over a million miles. That 4000 cycles is to 80% capacity those cells will still do another 4000 cycles down to 50% as second life in a power wall somewhere. A 60kWh pack in second life as a power wall will store 40 to 30 kWh for another 4000 cycles. 30kWh is three days for the avg European home and a two nights for the avg American home.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-tesla-batteries-exclusive-idUSKBN22Q1WC
The new massive gigafactory in Austin Texas will be using UT Austins LiFePO4 cell tech to make cells under $100kwh for The American market some time next year. If you are near Austin drive by it truly impressive in size it’s five decks of production shape over an area in the square mile size range. Massive is an understatement.
The simple fact is the age of lithium is here there is no stopping it. Luddites gonna lude but they are powerless to stop the move into the 21st century. Audi VW and BMW are all ending thier internal combustion engine lines by 2030 or sooner. $80 kwh kills the ICE engine in every way economically.
I have paid for solar panels on my roof I leased as Tesla model S for a year. My charge cost via grid power would have been 7 cents kWh, I have a years data in Texas heat and traffic in urban driving that S got 4 to 4.5 miles to the kWh. Motorway at 80 freedom units was 3.2 to 3.5 miles to the kWh. I used it to commute 20 miles round trip.per day in bumper to bumper grid lock something a Tesla excels at with regen. 4 miles to a 7 cent kWh is the equivalent to 1.75 cents per mile. Gasoline today is $2.8 gal a model S sized sedan would be lucky to get 30 mph in grid lock but well use that. 2.80/30= is 9.3 cents per mile. For a 30 mpg ICE car to equal 1.75 cents per mile gasoline would need to cost 52.5 cents per gallon. Put another way that Tesla on commercial power was like paying 52 cents per gallon of fuel. Since my panels payed themselves off already in under 5 years I drove that Tesla for free in fuel costs, not counting the loss of the sellable power to the grid. It worked out better economical for me to sell my solar power during the day to ERCOT and then buy back off peak power at night to charge at 3.6 cents per kWh so in real terms that Tesla was running on the equivalent of 27 cents per gallon of gasoline the math is easy. 3.6/9= 0.9 cents per mile. 0.9 cents per mile times 30mpg = 27 cents to equal the same 0.9 cents per mile. My lease cost on that Tesla was less than the last lease I had for a luxury Volvo so it’s moot on the capital investment cost It was already less than my prior luxury car.
Like I said the age of lithium is here.
Typo..3.6 kwh over 4 miles is 0.9 cents per mile.
“It worked out better economical for me to sell my solar power during the day to ERCOT and then buy back off peak power at night to charge at 3.6 cents per kWh so in real terms that Tesla was running on the equivalent of 27 cents per gallon of gasoline the math is easy. 3.6/4= 0.9 cents per mile. 0.9 cents per mile times 30mpg = 27 cents to equal the same 0.9 cents per mile. “
At 3000 C and above a significant fraction of water vapor splitting releases free hydrogen. The difficulty lies in a practical process for separating the hydrogen from oxygen.
About two decades ago some Scandinavian researchers tried developing thin, hydrogen permeable ceramic membranes that would resist cracking from the thermal stress. The hydrogen extraction actually functioned initially, but materials science did not find a suitable long life material.
A textured magnesium foil has been fabricated which has great selective affinity for free hydrogen in gas mixtures. Light concentrated into patterns within the foil releases the hydrogen on demand.
Ocean water is going to be turned into lithium for LiFePO4 cells bank on it.
There is on avg 10kg of metallic lithium in a 80kWh pack. The Saudis have a way to get lithium metal from water at $5 per kg of Lithium in energy costs with the byproducts worth more than the lithium itself. Check out the science in my other post.
I also have solar panels my leased model S was getting the equivalent of 27 cents per gallon in fuel costs buying back off peak power. Texas is a netmeter State I could have got those kWh back in a net meter agreement at zero cost but I’d rather sell peak power during the day directly to ERCOT and then buy back whole sale power at night for the TDU charge plus whole sale rate which I can get at for 3.2 to 3.6 cents almost every night.
Even without ocean lithium there is so much in the shale well flow back brines that the USA will never run out. UT Austin is already commercializing their tech to do just this.
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