He’s got that “True Believer” thing where he thinks he’s discovered some hidden truth that only he is smart enough to see. It’s conspiracy theory thinking, and he knows The Truth. “No, it was never about slavery, despite what everyone said! It was about the Acela Corridor!”

At this point a moment of mental clarity might just kill him!

DiogenesLamp: "Anyone thinking Pearl Harbor is the same as Ft. Sumter, is too far out in la la land to take seriously."

Well. first, each event started the largest US war of its century.
And other parallels can be drawn for people not committed to blinding themselves to truth.

Second, I'd respond anyone thinking Fire Eaters lied when they said slavery was their main reason for secession is too far out in lala land to take seriously.

See?
Insults are easy, serious responses not so much.
That's why I assume, when you just toss out insults, or "skip", its really because you just can't make a serious answer to my post.

DiogenesLamp: "It is precisely because of your tendency to already have your mind made up about what you "chose to think" that it is pointless to engage with you."

But you're the one who continues to post your endless lies & nonsense -- all I do is try to correct you and tell the truth of the matters.
But you don't care, you just keep posting the same lies over & over, regardless of the truth.
And whenever it gets too difficult for you to answer, what do you do?
That's right, you say "skip" or "lala land".

DiogenesLamp: "You have no objectivity, and you don't even pretend to have any, so why bother?
It's like trying to convince a Packers fan to like the Eagles."

The truth is neither "objective" nor "subjective", it's neither Packer nor Eagle fan, the truth doesn't care what we think or feel, the truth simply is and we can chose to acknowledge it or not.

I chose to, you chose not to.

DiogenesLamp: "Waste of time to engage."

The truth doesn't care whether you "engage" or not.
But the truth does want to be heard, and that's why I'm here, FRiend.

Bubba Ho-Tep: "He’s got that “True Believer” thing where he thinks he’s discovered some hidden truth..."

I think the word "epistemology" describes the study of what is true, and some claim -- DiogenesLamp himself claims on occasion -- that there really is no "truth", that it's all just "eye of the beholder" or what we feeeeeeeel is true.

At other times he seems to claim he's found the Real Truth and so has become a Sole Authority on what is or isn't.
Indeed, he often rejects "appeals to authority" if that authority disagrees with his own discernment of "truth".

Anyway, we're here to marshal facts, quotes, statistics & whatever logic we can in hopes to reveal as much of actual historical events as possible.
I enjoy it and much appreciate your posts too.

Thanks!

Not going to entertain any more comparisons between Pearl Harbor and Ft. Sumter. That is crazy talk.

He’s got that “True Believer” thing where he thinks he’s discovered some hidden truth that only he is smart enough to see.

Hidden? You mean stuff I had never heard of before in my entire life? To say such stuff is "hidden" is to imply someone is "hiding" it.

Now why would anyone want to hide the fact that the VAST BULK of all income derived from Europe was the consequence of Southern output? You see, all my life I thought it was reasonable to believe the 23 or so million people in the North were producing the vast majority of export value to Europe. It never occurred to me to even consider the possibility that 5 million Southerners were producing 73-85% of all export value for the entire nation.

It seems this is relevant to something.

Secondly, all I had ever heard for most of my life is that the South fired on Ft. Sumter, and thus started the war. I never had an inkling that anything more happened than a bunch of hot heads decided to start a war by firing cannons at a US Fort.

Imagine my surprise to discover that the reason why they fired cannons at the fort was because they had learned that a war fleet task force was bearing down on them, and would soon attack them with ships' cannons when they arrived.

They waited until the first of these warships arrived, and then they decided the reports must be true, and so therefore the war had already been started by Lincoln.

Funny how that information was "hidden." It completely changes the character of what happened and who was the aggressor, but for some reason it never gets mentioned in any history book I had previously read.

So now I have two things that were "hidden" for some reason, and they both point to the story not being as I had been led to believe my whole life.

But wait! There's more! Where was all that Southern produced money going? Would you believe it was going to New York and Washington DC?

Wow! Same F***ing bastards we are fighting every year for the soul of the nation. Same tax and spend liberal @$$holes that have long been the enemies of everyone with conservative beliefs. And the money was flowing through their hands? Unbelievable. Why that's almost like a motive or something to launch a war against someone.

Why was this information "hidden" from the history books. Seems quite relevant to me.

How odd is it for three separate bits of information to be hidden, just because they contradict the long repeated "official" account of what happened?

It was about the Acela Corridor!”

Nothing going on in the Acela Corridor. Just hard working people, trying to earn a living. Why the Acela corridor is like our prime manufacturing region in the nation.

It may now sound ridiculous, but Nikita Khrushchev once told America "we will bury you" and Washington believed him. For years the intelligence community thought the U.S.S.R. was on the verge of overtaking the U.S. as the world's largest economy before the Soviets unexpectedly collapsed. Daniel Patrick Moynihan's book, Secrecy: the American Experience, tries to explain how such a tremendous intelligence misjudgment could take place.

The Gaither report ... was forwarded to the president just weeks after the ... launching of Sputnik. ... The conclusions were stark to the point of startling ... 'The GNP of the USSR is now more than 1/3 that of the US and is increasing half again as fast' ... The intelligence community accepted and 'improved the assessment of the Gaither commission. ... [The] report remained Top Secret until 1973. But of course it had leaked well before then ... to ... the New York Times.

The illusion lasted so long because it was founded on a secret report that gave it credibility. Once the narrative had been established, it remained fundamentally unchallenged until nearly the end of the Cold War. "Sovietologists ... trained to rely on the same general assumptions and data, had engaged in 'group think' ... [until] in 1985, Rowen circulated a paper to senior officials in the Reagan administration ... that actual Soviet economic growth was close to zero."

Nikita Khrushchev? Nikita Khrushchev from 1953-1964. Mostly the Eisenhower era.

For some reason the phrase "Military Industrial Complex" comes to mind. What the H3ll was Eisenhower talking about?

So this article is suggesting that the "intelligence" community produced a report that indicated we need to spend a LOT more money? I wonder who benefits from those increases in spending?

Funny that it was to the *NEW YORK TIMES* to which the "intelligence" community leaked the Gaither report. I would have expected it to have been leaked to the Topeka Capital-Journal.

Even WP states

Although many Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized an abolitionist movement. [1] Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from ‘un-institutional’ Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or “non-conformist” believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements.[1][2]

In particular, the effects of the Second Great Awakening resulted in many evangelicals working to see the theoretical Christian view, that all people are essentially equal, made more of a practical reality. Freedom of expression within the Western world also helped in enabling opportunity to express their position. Prominent among these abolitionists was Parliamentarian William Wilberforce in England, who wrote in his diary when he was 28 that, “God Almighty has set before me two great objects, the suppression of the Slave Trade and Reformation of Morals.”[3] With others he labored, despite determined opposition, to finally abolish the British slave trade. English preacher Charles Spurgeon had some of his sermons burned in America due to his censure of slavery, calling it “the foulest blot” and which “may have to be washed out in blood.”[4] Methodist founder John Wesley denounced human bondage as “the sum of all villainies,” and detailed its abuses.[5] In Georgia, primitive Methodists united with brethren elsewhere in condemning slavery. Many evangelical leaders in the United States such as Presbyterian Charles Finney and Theodore Weld, and women such as Harriet Beecher Stowe (daughter of abolitionist Lyman Beecher) and Sojourner Truth motivated hearers to support abolition. Finney preached that slavery was a moral sin, and so supported its elimination. “I had made up my mind on the question of slavery, and was exceedingly anxious to arouse public attention to the subject. In my prayers and preaching, I so often alluded to slavery, and denounced it.[6] Repentance from slavery was required of souls, once enlightened of the subject, while continued support of the system incurred “the greatest guilt” upon them.[7]

Quakers in particular were early leaders in abolitionism. In 1688 Dutch Quakers in Germantown, Pennsylvania, sent an antislavery petition to the Monthly Meeting of Quakers. By 1727 British Quakers had expressed their official disapproval of the slave trade.[8] Three Quaker abolitionists, Benjamin Lay, John Woolman, and Anthony Benezet, devoted their lives to the abolitionist effort from the 1730s to the 1760s, with Lay founding the Negro School in 1770, which would serve more than 250 pupils.[9] In June 1783 a petition from the London Yearly Meeting and signed by over 300 Quakers was presented to Parliament protesting the slave trade.[10]

In 1787 the Society for Effecting the Abolition of the Slave Trade was formed, with 9 of the 12 founder members being Quakers. During the same year, William Wilberforce was persuaded to take up their cause; as an MP, Wilberforce was able to introduce a bill to abolish the slave trade. Wilberforce first attempted to abolish the trade in 1791, but could only muster half the necessary votes; however, after transferring his support to the Whigs, it became an election issue. Abolitionist pressure had changed popular opinion, and in the 1806 election enough abolitionists entered parliament for Wilberforce to be able to see the passing of the Slave Trade Act 1807. The Royal Navy subsequently declared that the slave trade was equal to piracy, the West Africa Squadron choosing to seize ships involved in the transfer of slaves and liberate the slaves on board, effectively crippling the transatlantic trade. Through abolitionist efforts, popular opinion continued to mount against slavery, and in 1833 slavery itself was outlawed throughout the British Empire – at that time containing roughly 1/6 of the world’s population (rising to 1/4 towards the end of the century).

In the United States, the abolition movement faced much opposition. Bertram Wyatt-Brown notes that the appearance of the Christian abolitionist movement “with its religious ideology alarmed newsmen, politicians, and ordinary citizens. They angrily predicted the endangerment of secular democracy, the mongrelization, as it was called, of white society, and the destruction of the federal union. Speakers at huge rallies and editors of conservative papers in the North denounced these newcomers to radical reform as the same old “church-and-state” zealots, who tried to shut down post offices, taverns, carriage companies, shops, and other public places on Sundays. Mob violence sometimes ensued.”[This quote needs a citation]

A postal campaign in 1835 by the American Anti-Slavery Society (AA-SS) – founded by African-American Presbyterian clergyman Theodore S. Wright – sent bundles of tracts and newspapers (over 100,000) to prominent clerical, legal, and political figures throughout the whole country, and culminated in massive demonstrations throughout the North and South.[11] In attempting to stop these mailings, New York Postmaster Samuel L. Gouverneur unsuccessfully requested the AA-SS to cease sending it to the South. He therefore decided that he would “aid in preserving the public peace” by refusing to allow the mails to carry abolition pamphlets to the South himself, with the new Postmaster General Amos Kendall affirming, even though he admitted he had no legal authority to do so.[12][13][14][15] This resulted in the AA-SS resorting to other and clandestine means of dissemination.

Despite such determined opposition, many Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian members freed their slaves and sponsored black congregations, in which many black ministers encouraged slaves to believe that freedom could be gained during their lifetime. After a great revival occurred in 1801 at Cane Ridge, Kentucky, American Methodists made anti-slavery sentiments a condition of church membership.[16] Abolitionist writings, such as “A Condensed Anti-Slavery Bible Argument” (1845) by George Bourne,[17] and “God Against Slavery” (1857) by George B. Cheever,[18] used the Bible, logic and reason extensively in contending against the institution of slavery, and in particular the chattel form of it as seen in the South. In Cheever’s speech entitled, “The Fire and Hammer of God’s Word Against the Sin of Slavery”, his desire for eliminating the crime of slaveholding is clear, as he goes so far as to address it to the President.

Other Protestant missionaries of the Great Awakening initially opposed slavery in the South, but by the early decades of the 19th century, many Baptist and Methodist preachers in the South had come to an accommodation with it in order to evangelize the farmers and workers. Disagreements between the newer way of thinking and the old often created schisms within denominations at the time. Differences in views toward slavery resulted in the Baptist and Methodist churches dividing into regional associations by the beginning of the Civil War.[19]

More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Abolitionism

Bible only supported bondservants who volunteered to enter into a contract or widows and such who were deserted after violent skirmishes (And even this was temporary).

That is really not true, since foreigners could be bought (and sold by their own) as permanent slaves and perpetual thru their offspring. However, Biblical slavery was not what is typically thought of today, and while never commanded, it was allowed as its regulated form as morally tolerable in that cultural condition, in which which assurance of food and raiment was itself a pressing need, and education and travel was very limited.

Slaves were to be given freedom if the owner knocked out even a tooth, which as principal perhaps could be extended, while escaped slaves were not to be returned to their master. And in the NT threatening was forbidden, and equal pay required, and freedom sought if lawfully possible, and an escapte slave was returned to his owner by Paul, no longer to be a slave, but to be received as Paul himself.

A good concise substantiated description of Biblical slavery is here , and a most explanatory one here by the grace of God.

You will find that people will figure out ways to believe what they want to believe, and when you present them with a contradiction between demonstrable facts and what they wish to believe, they will cling to what they wish to believe and dismiss the annoying facts.

Well said!!!!1

Which meant in agriculture, you were either a slave owner, or a poor subsistence farmer unable to do much more than feed the family.

Oh?

How is it that El Norte managed to have farmers who did much better than this??

He said something like, 'Here I was, a professor in some of America’s leading universities and I had no idea that Christians had done that.'

There are Thousands of 'professors' that lack a LOT of knowledge that the rest of us have!

...there is a large crowd of lurkers who are not so vocal...

Which used to be known as the Silent Majority.

If your religious foundation is that "all men are created equal", slavery doesn't fit.

As Slick Willy might say:

Kinda depends on what 'men' means.

Actually, Lincoln, the man most responsible for triggering that war, was in fact an atheist. He didn’t embrace actual Christianity until deep into the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Abraham_Lincoln

And fiction and movies is where we get our education....

Our children see this and learn to imitate it;

Attempts to correct Wikipedia on subjects like Abortion or Homosexuality get rewritten to reflect a liberal bias on those subjects.

Heck; I can't even get past what the MEDIA writes about it!!

Thus my constant SPAMMING of FR with the following:

A BIBLICAL Message about homosexuality

Genesis 13:13

Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
Leviticus niv
18:22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Psalms 12:8 The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.
2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

Romans 1 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

24 Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. 29 They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite.

2 Peter 2

1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

But there IS hope!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...

The Health Risks of gay sex.

We are living in a Genesis 19:9 world...

“Get out of our way,” they replied.
“This fellow came here as a foreigner,

and now he wants to play the judge!
“We’ll treat you worse than them.”

They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

It would have been better for them all to go back to Africa.

Well; there is Liberia.

But it has had it's own problems as of late.