Megachurch pastor says Christianity doesn’t hinge on Jesus’ birth, and a debate rages

The pastor of one of America’s largest megachurches stirred up Christmas controversy after preaching that the story of Jesus’ virgin birth is not crucial to the Christian faith.

“If somebody can predict their own death and resurrection, I’m not all that concerned about how they got into the world,” Andy Stanley said in a Dec. 4 sermon at North Point Community Church, which draws 36,000 attendees across six locations in suburban Atlanta. “Christianity doesn’t hinge on the truth or even the stories around the birth of Jesus. It hinges on the resurrection of Jesus.”

You know perfectly well that I meant that there is nothing specifically Catholic about the science of logic.

Dude...I have no idea what you mean by the vast majority of your posts.

I'll repeat what I posted before. If we presume the catholic position of Mary being the "mother of God" is correct then the following is correct.

Mary is the mother of God

Holy Spirit is God

Mary is the mother of the Holy Spirit

Are you willing to agree to this?? This is the next "logical" position based on your "argument".

This foolishness could go on but the astute reader will understand why your pathetic attempt at "logic" fails.

The bible notes Mary is the mother of Jesus and that's what we should accept. Anything beyond that begins to become absurd and leads to very, very bad theology.

The catholic position has to have so many caveats and footnotes to explain away the plain meaning of your position.

Your position also mplies the following:

If Mary is the "mother of God", Mary existed prior to God.

We know that is not correct nor does the Bible sustain us the catholic understanding.

So no...it is your position that is intellectually dishonest for the false notion it advances. It is not sustained theologically...not that that matters to the catholic.

This is why Christians reject the title accorded to Mary by roman catholicism that she is the "mother of God".

As stated the syllogism is valid. The invalid comes when Catholics try to conflate that syllogism with the birth of Jesus, claiming Mary is the Mother of God. And you know that yet persist in trying to confuse the issue. My question points at the heart of the deception to which your syllogism was aimed for effect. Sally gave birth to a fireman? No she gave birth to a baby whio later became a fireman. Did Jesus later become God? No, you say. Then Jesus was conceived as a human embryo and grew to birth age then grew into manhood ... as a human who was in The Father and the The Father in Him. Mary is the Mother of Jesus, but since Jesus IS The Word made flesh, He existed before Mary was even conceived. Mary is not the mother of someone Who existed before she was created. She is the Blessed mother of the body and man called Jesus.

“Mary is not the mother of someone Who existed before she was created.”

Of course she is! And every Protestant on earth believes that she is, because she is the mother of Jesus Chist, who is the Second Person of the Trinity!

That’s precisely the point. Mary became the mother of the eternal Word when he became incarnate in her womb.

She was not ETERNALLY the mother of the Word. She BECAME the mother of the Word about 2,000 years ago. She is the mother of Jesus Christ now. Since Jesus Christ is the eternal Word, God, Mary is the mother of the Word, i.e., God.

Since no one has ever claimed that Mary has been eternally the mother of God, it is preposterous to keep clamoring that Mary could not be the mother of God eternally.

It’s like writing dozens and dozens of books proving to the world that Abraham Lincoln was NOT shot in Dallas in 1963.

Nice try, really, nice try.

In your syllogism, was Sam a fireman at birth? No. So Sam the fireman does not equate with The Word made flesh Who dwelt among us.

The Blessed Mary gave birth to the human side of God the Son, The Word Who was made flesh and dwelt among us. You are desperate to take the mystery and explain it in human reasoning when it cannot be done.

Can you tell us when the soul of an individual human being is fully present within the physical body or entangled with the physical cell structure? I am well versed in Embryology and I cannot do it. It remains a great mystery to my intellect. When you can show me the definitive moment that the soul is in residence with the individual human being THEN we can discuss the issue of Who or what The Blessed Mary gestated in her womb.

I can share this with you, Jesus taught His disciples that all they could see of God The Father Almighty was where God intersected their limits of perception for knowing, and that intersection IS Jesus. For The Father is in Him and He is in The Father, He named Himself long before He was born of Mary, as God with us.

To make the specious claim that Mary is or was the mother of God is to commit more than one logical error at the same time. You know the medical definition of conception. The Angel told Mary:

Luke 1:35 The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come over you, and the power of the Most High will surround you. Therefore, the child will be holy and will be called the Son of God.[ISV] As a Priest, are you able to tell us when during the gestational time there is fully a 'child' present in the womb? Is there a child there even before the beginning of building the actual body, when the embryonic encapsulation has started within which a whole human body will be built? You do know that the Mother's body builds none of the structures of encapsulation or the body within that structure, right? Wa Jesus implanted in Mary's womb already in the encapsulation? ... We just do not have a way to answer these points!
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. [KJV]
Luke 1:35 And the messenger answering said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;[Young's Literal Translation]

Can you tell us whether a sex gamete from Mary was used to form the zygotic first cell of Jesus? Can you tell us from what source came the male sex gamete of the zygote Jesus? Can you even tell us whether Jesus when through the zygotic stage then morulla stage of gestation, before implanting in Mary's womb, differentiating to form the water world encapsulation, then forming a placenta, amniotic sac, and a body for living in the air world?

You nor anyone else knows when the human soul of Jesus was fully present within the cellular being gestating in The Blessed Mary's womb. And not any living soul can tell us when the spirit is present with the soul in the body. So how can you continue to claim Mary gestated God in her womb? You don't know enough to make such an assertion, in fact.

You will believe what you want to on the issues, but take care that your beliefs are not being align in such a way as to place The Creator in a box which you believe you are empowered to manipulate.

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