The Shroud of Turin, Authenticated Again

National Review ^ | 04/16/2016 | Myra Adams

[grey_whiskers]

You know, this is a nice break from all those Trump / Cruz food fights.

[Swordmaker]

What about this story of Grimaldi and his depiction with a eyes wide open veil?

Grimaldi was not a painter but a secretary in the Vatican who documented that in 1616 or 1617, there were five copies of the Vatican Veronica made by Artist Pietro Strozzi. However, All five are known and there whereabouts accounted for. He mentioned nothing about eyes being open. All of the copies have their eyes closed.

The unfinished Grimaldi document is controversial because the frontispiece seems to show a representation of the Veronica that may, or may not, have its eyes open. That may have been an affectation of the artist who decorated the manuscript. At the size of the iconography of the image, it's a matter of interpretation of the observer whether the eyes or open or closed or not. The image is certainly not realism to the image itself.

Front Page of Grimaldi's Work

Frontpiece image

There is also evidence that someone played hanky-panky with the dating on the unfinished manuscript, changing Grimaldi's 1616 dates= of authorship by a few years to 1620, making them later than Grimaldi actually penned the document. However they did not change the dates on which Grimaldi says Strozzi painted his copies of the Vatican Veronica.

Four of the extant copies of the Vatican Veronica's Veil from 1617-1618

But, iconography of the 1600s was not realistic to what they were portraying in any case. Every other painting of the Veronica of the period showed it with open eyes.. . and it did not look at all like the obscure Manoppello Veronica at all.

[Swordmaker]

I simply asked of the purported blood on the Shroud has been tested to see if it is genetically Jewish blood. If it is tested and doesn't have the Jewish markers, it is not the shroud of the Savior.

And my point is that there are no distinctive markers that say this blood is "Jewish" from any other semitic blood in the middle east. There are no specific DNA markers that will state categorically that this person is Jewish. We can state that the blood genotype is AB negative which is a good indicator as it is much more likely to be found in that region and among those people of Middle Easter descent than anywhere else in the world. But the DNA is now too degraded to do much more after 2000 years or so.

Somewhere on the Shroud there may be some that is not, but we do not have full access to the Shroud to find it.

[Swordmaker]

Plus it is not customary to use scripture to counter other scriptures. What happened to Nicocdemus, who was with Joseph, and probably others, and his 75 - 100 pounds of spices? Fenton translates it as a “winding sheet”

Fenton is one of those who buys in to the strip definitions. IT was a SHEET. Nowhere was Sindon ever used to as a "winding." Ever. Kit is a stretch used to keep the mummy like bindings alive from the 18th century exegesis And they did not WIND it around the body they placed the body on it and wrapped it, up and over the head, the way they found the only other extant shroud burial. Don't ignore scholarship and the JEWISH words on the subject just because some 18th and 19th century pastors were convinced that mummies were they way that everyone was buried in the middle east in the 1st century and older because it was popular after Egyptology discovered them with Napoleonic wars in Egypt.

They made a lot of other mistakes too, like assuming that Moses interacted with Ramses II, called the great, and established that as one of the pillars of Egyptian time lines and that has played hob with Biblical time lines ever since! They made that mistake because of a name similarity. . .

[aMorePerfectUnion]

And my point is that there are no distinctive markers that say this blood is "Jewish" from any other semitic blood in the middle east.

Yes. I understand the point you made. I have the memory of seeing evidence that there are specific genetic markers.

[Swordmaker]

“When he learned about it from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. 46 So he bought fine linen, and taking Him down, wrapped Him in the linen and laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock.”

So, according to you, Joseph of Arimathea didn't have even go and ask for the body. It was just the goodness of Pilate's heart. Right, sure. OK.

And no, I am not forgetting it. Once you explained which translation you got your 75 pounds from, I understood the reason for it. . . and where you are getting your mis-translations from. Simple English. . . too simple. Now you fall back on Fenton adding his interpretation that "Sindon" means "Winding cloth" when no where else in Greek or Biblical exegesis can we find it use in that manner. He CREATED that interpretation, literally out of whole cloth. What are supposed to think of people who ADD or take away to or from the Bible? That's what FENTON did by putting HIS made up definition to a word that everyone knew what it meant when they used it.

One of my favorite examples of this is passage in one of the letters. . . in the old version it states that "The teachers of God's word are Holy and you should honor them." A newer translation of the Bible puts it this way "The teachers of God's word are Holy and you should pay them."

Can you see an underlying agenda in the new translation and interpretation of the Greek word for honor? Which in some rare instances can mean fare, price, or fee. The choice the translator went off the deep end to get "pay" I can see his agenda if I were blind.

[GGpaX4DumpedTea]

When people seek perfection in others, I remind them that Jesus blew one out of twelve.

You are so mistaken. Judas was not an accident. It all had to do with fulfilling what was to be. Do you think Jesus did not know that Judas would be the one, when he chose him?

[Swordmaker]

You know, this is a nice break from all those Trump / Cruz food fights.

It is. . . just what we need, a break from the Political opinion food fights for the much calmer religious opinion food fights! I'm so glad I just follow the scholarship and the science. That way I can get attacked from all sides!

[Thorliveshere]

Really not sure what you mean by that....

[odawg]

“So, according to you, Joseph of Arimathea didn’t have even go and ask for the body.”

No offense or anything, but you must be insane.

[Godzilla]

Godzilla, been a while and hope you are very well. I have some vague memory that at one time in the past you posted material about Jewish DNA markers. If that was you, do you have anything to contribute to this discussion?

there are dna haplotypes that identify regions of the world that have been used to map human migrations. there has also been a lot of dna studies of groups claiming Jewish ancestory (Lembas, Ashkenzi, etc), so identifying specific jewish related markers is possible. The key is whether or not enough dna survived to enable the identification of the haplotype (effects from exposure to fires, air, etc).

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Godzilla,
Thanks for dropping by and sharing. I’ve always considered you about as deep as they come. I just had a vague memory of something you’d posted in a discussion once.

Hope all is well in your world!
ampu

[Godzilla]

apart from Kalifornia allergies, doing fine

[Swordmaker]

there are dan haplotypes that identify regions of the world that have been used to map human migrations. there has also been a lot of dan studies of groups claiming Jewish ancestory (Lembas, Ashkenzi, etc), so identifying specific jewish related markers is possible. The key is whether or not enough dan survived to enable the identification of the haplotype (effects from exposure to fires, air, etc).

Thank you Godzilla. That was the point I was making. Firstly, that there is no specific DNA strands that say this person was a person of Jewish descent. . . but perhaps of middle eastern, semitic descent which is a much broader stroke of the DNA brush. Secondly, that any DNA in the blood on the Shroud is too old, too degraded with that age, too broken, and too contaminated to be dispositive of any testing for haplotyping.

At this point the fact that the blood is, or may be, AB negative is about as dispositive as we're are likely to get until some more definitive method of testing the broken DNA strands is developed.

[Swordmaker]

No offense or anything, but you must be insane.

You are offensive. What can be offensive in asking legitimate questions when you claim that everything you say must have happened merely because YOU say it did based on a couple of sentences in one Gospel while you ignore the other three which show that other things had to have happened. Someone had to have gone to the Roman governor and pleaded for the release of Jesus' body, for a change in the normal procedure. He would NOT have merely broken Roman procedure out of the goodness of his heart just because a Centurion told him what happened out there. That makes no logical sense.

Going to the market as it was closing for the day in preparation for the Sabbath and buying the sindon, buying the 100 Roman Libre of spices and anointing oils had to take time. Taking the body off the cross had to take time. Doing the moving of the body to the tomb had to take time. AND persuading Pilate had to take time.

[odawg]

“Someone had to have gone to the Roman governor and pleaded for the release of Jesus’ body”

Well, the accounts say it was Joseph. I have no clue whatsoever why you claim that I tried to deny it. That is why I said you must be insane. There is no controversy, as far as I know, that Joseph did it.

You, however, seem to be denying John’s account of the spices and everything else, for that matter.

They accomplished everything they wanted except for wrapping Jesus’s face.

[AllAmericanGirl44]

bkmk

[Godzilla]

Firstly, that there is no specific DNA strands that say this person was a person of Jewish descent. . . but perhaps of middle eastern, semitic descent which is a much broader stroke of the DNA brush.

I'm not aware of any more detailed studies beyond blood type. However, even the broad brushed data would prove valuable in showing that it is unlikely to be a forgery. If the blood is middle eastern/semitic - then the European forgery theories fall apart, imho.

[Swordmaker]

I'm not aware of any more detailed studies beyond blood type. However, even the broad brushed data would prove valuable in showing that it is unlikely to be a forgery. If the blood is middle eastern/semitic - then the European forgery theories fall apart, imho.

I would agree, and a lot of scientists would love to do it. . . but the DNA on the Shroud is just too degraded to even start locating anything that is usable. Too bad.

[Godzilla]

but the DNA on the Shroud is just too degraded to even start locating anything that is usable. Too bad.

Has that been established? I know one of the critical issues is obtaining samples for analysis and the SOT Church officials are very, very reluctant to allow a lot of sampling.