Posted on 07/10/2015 4:33:00 AM PDT by knarf
Joe legal works in construction, has a Social Security number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.
Jose illegal also works in construction has no Social Security number and makes $15.00 per hour cash, under the table.
Ready?... now pay attention....
You make a great point, and one I’ve been saying for years. There are, in general, three classes of illegal immigrations. There is the criminal class - drugs and kidnapping and so on - the gimme class - those who came for free benefits - and then those who came to work labor.
All 3 are equally illegal, but they are still different. They have different impacts on our culture and society, they have different incentives to come here, and so on.
Then I would also point this out: While there is Joe Legal and Jose Illegal, there are also a lot of Jose Legals and a fair number of Joe Illegals. Sometimes I think some of the posters here kind of have as an underlying assumption that all Hispanic laborers they see out and about are illegal. It’s just not the case.
Actually, the way the scam is worked is with multiple identities: one for work and others for government benefits. When caught committing a crime, given a court date and released from jail, an identity can be discarded like a burner phone.
I’ve never seen that - but even if true, that’s a fourth separate category....
And I’m certainly not saying it doesn’t ever happen.
Jose illegal is technically not eligible for most of the benefits you list.
That may be poorly enforced, but it is the law.
Even many legal immigrants are not eligible for many of these programs.
http://nilc.org/overview-immeligfedprograms.html
_______________
However, refugees seeking asylum are provided many benefits. People crossing the border illegally have been told to say they are seeking asylum.
California No Borders activists call Illegal aliens “refugees” in Napa Valley; want Pelosi to send federal cash
https://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com/2015/07/07/california-no-borders-activists-call-illegal-aliens-refugees-in-napa-valley-want-pelosi-to-send-federal-cash/
This is what the No Borders Left and their friends in the Catholic Church are trying to do everywhere—-re-classify illegal aliens by calling them “refugees.”
Snip
Illegal workers in Napa Valley are economic migrants, not refugees. But, the Left (the Religious Left too) sure would like them designated as refugees so that they will be eligible for all forms of social services and will be given permission to work and eventually to vote here.
List of benefits to refugees:
Refugee Resettlement Fact Sheet
https://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com/refugee-resettlement-fact-sheets/
From 0 employees to more than a hundred, that’s a lot of hard work.
You’ve certainly walked the walk, as they say.
Something I haven’t seen addressed is the use of staffing companies.
While I was truck driving, I noticed distribution centers changing to staffing companies for their dock workers.
Usually all Hispanic workers.
Usually 10 to 20 with 1 or 2 who spoke English.
I know smaller construction companies rely heavily on staffing companies for job to job workers.
Again, mostly Hispanic and most non English speaking.
A man I know, with over 20 years experience finishing concrete, lost his job because the company started using Hispanics they hired through a staffing company.
I don’t believe this to be a good long term strategy for the employer.
If it were me, I would rather pay more for a qualified long time employee with known skills and ability.
I would be interested in your thoughts and observations on the subject.
No arguments from me. I was simply trying to point out that saying Jose Illegal is eligible for all these benefits is quite simply untrue.
There are also serious problems with the notion that Jose Illegal can keep a steady under the table job at $15/hour for an extended period. Due to the way our tax laws work, such jobs are few and far between.
If Jose illegal is working under the table and getting $15, more likely he’ll get 60 hours one week and 15 or 0 the next, nothing steady or predictable.
If he’s working steady, as others on this thread have pointed out, he’s almost certainly having taxes withheld.
I used to work for a franchising company, so I spent a lot of time training new franchisees and supporting existing ones.
Most of them simply could not comprehend that the cost of an employee is not just the amount of wages plus burden.
Among the factors that figure into how much an employee’s actual cost is: production rate, cost of mistakes and accidents which eat up management time in addition to the cost of redoing the work, the extent to which employees are self-supervising so you don’t have to hire more supervisors, the cost of poor work pissing off customers.
And the list is much longer than that. But most of the idiot franchisees persisted in believing that the cost = what they paid in wages plus burden. Probably because that was a number they could readily compare.
So they paid minimum wage or as little above it as they could get away with, and they got work proportionate in quality. A lot of them are out of business now.
The strategy I always proposed was to pay $2 or more per hour above “the going rate.” Keep the good employees and lay the crummy ones off. The franchisees who followed this advice are mostly still in business and profitable.
No employer thinks it’s a good long term solution....but business owners often can’t afford to look long term all the time - in the contracting field often have to get this weeks jobs done or they’re out of business next week.
But the States have come up with their own identical programs specifically for Illegal Aliens, especially here in California
I understand your points and agree with the pay for better workers philosophy 100%.
In my own experience, major employers have drank from the cheap labor flask.
A case I experienced first hand: I used to pull meat from the mid west, kansas, Colorado, Iowa, and Texas.
Tyson Foods bought out Iowa Beef Packers (IBP), IBP had many Hispanic employees, but they were all production line workers.
After Tyson bought them out, there was a drastic change. It seemed that the truck loaders went from 40% Hispanic to 95% Hispanic in 2 or 3 months.
Only the top supervisory jobs were held by Americans.
The loads typically had 5 or 6 stops scheduled over a two day period.
Once the docks became majority Hispanic, the loads were completely screwed up.
It seemed the loader just slammed pallets on the truck with no thought about the stops.
What should have been a two day unload became three days.
The last load I pulled for Tyson was in 2006, a 6 stop load with two days of scheduled unload.
Because of the sloppy loading, it took me four days to get unloaded.
Until I retired in 2012, I refused to pull another Tyson load.
It simply wasn’t worth my time.
I talked to my old dispatcher last year, he said the problem hasn’t gotten any better.
These are large companies operating their own facilities. I guess saving a peso on the dock is working for them.
I understand the time limitations on contractors.
One of my sons has been a carpenter for nearly thirty years.
He has usually worked building high end homes in the best neighbourhoods.
He’s always loved his work.
The last few years his work dropped off due to the bad economy.
Most of the Jobs were under bid by companies using majority Hispanic labor.
In the last two years, most of his work has been going to brand new houses to fix what the original builder, with his Hispanic carpenters, did wrong.
One house they had to completely remove and replace the roof.
Other times windows were installed badly, floors were not level, a porch roof had separated from the house.
If it can be imagined, he’s had to fix it.
He got so disgusted he left construction for good.
And he’s one of the guys who made top pay because he did quality work and could supervise others.
What happens when no one is left to build the houses but the cheap Hispanic labor?
I am in commercial construction. Some overload for subcontractor work forces are filled by staffing companies on jobs that are not exclusively union. The are skilled trade staffing companies that furnish legal workers that have proper paperwork and SSNs.
Companies in residential or light commercial sometimes do not use properly vetted staffing sources, but not on major construction.
Even residential builders are very careful now, compared to a decade ago, due to the penalties.
That being said, I have found illegals with real SSN and valid state driver’s license cards as many have been here for decades. They are gone when discovered as a sub’s employee.
Thank you.
I have no knowledge of commercial construction.
Most of my knowledge comes from my son and a few friends, and most of that is residential.
I am personally amazed that we have sunken this low.
What ever happened to the Everify system?
Wasn’t that supposed to solve all the problems?
Or did employers simply ignore it?
I know, as a truck driver, whenever I changed companies, my last ten years of employment had to be verified by my new employer, I was finger printed, drug tested and a federal background check was done.
I imagine it’s only gotten harder for those still driving.
May God bless you and yours.
All 3 are equally illegal, but they are still different. They have different impacts on our culture and society, they have different incentives to come here, and so on
That is an astute observation, and as far as the impacts on our culture and society, i see as a key aspect is to whether a person or culture has been seduced by the victim-entitlement mentality, which the liberals use to get themselves elected as the saviors of those who are oppressed by the established class.
The latter of which have a status and benefits attained by lawful means and principals under a system that rewards merit, while the liberals basically contend that all have a right to the same benefits regards of merit, and incite class warfare to attain it. Which is the case under Communism or American liberalism.
Of course, while the liberal elite, who see themselves as uniquely worthy to run the country, attain position by presenting themselves saviors of the oppressed (making merchandise of valid grievances), the end result of causing those in business class to divest their seats for those in economy class, the end results is that all basically end up in the cargo hold in service to the liberals and in utter dependence upon them.
Of course, this is nothing new, as the original occupy movement and share the wealth campaign was the devil selfishly seeking to climb up some other way than that is is lawful, seeing him as fit to be as God. (Is. 14) And being abased due to his self-exaltation, he next sought to seduce Eve into subscribing to the "share the wealth" idea, that she presently was being unjustly deprived by God of something He possessed, and which was her right to have, and to act unlawfully to attain it. (Gn. 3)
Note that claiming one has a right to that which others have is not the same as holding they have a right to attain such by merit, and is contrary to grace, in which one benevolently bestows benefits to victims and even those who deserve the contrary, and which is an incentive for the recipient to likewise become a blessing to others by bettering themselves, and is not meant to subsidize indolence, etc.
The working Central Americans that I know do not seem to subscribe to the victim-entitlement mentality, though most vote Democrat due to seeing them as economically in their favor (PR's are more likely to subscribe to the welfare state). But most oppose homosexuality and overall are more conservative than the "natives" around here, and get along better, with a "live and let live" attitude overall, and are much less likely to really complain versus being congenial, and are far far more likely to be Christian. You can ride the same crowded bus for years and never see a real problem, which is not the case with the black culture, while the native commuters have blank stares.
These are some of observations after 20 years in a predominately Latino city in which i am the minority (and still speak very little Spanish).
Next time you contract a job, ask the contractor for a sizeable discount for paying half of the cost in cash.
I think you might be surprised to find substantial savings for yourself and a contractor who will have no trouble at all handling the cash.
Most commercial companies use eVerify and other similar verification.
It should be noted that ethnic origins (not race or gender) were the biggest source of fines from the DOL against prospective employers during the 205 to 2010 era. Employers had to be very careful not to appear discriminatory to avoid those fines. The issue always had to be proper documentation and done across the board for everyone. We took the trouble of reverifying 3,000 current employees to show the non-discriminating standards being applied.
First of all, I don't have to have a "next time" - I was the contractor for over 20 years. It is that experience that I am sharing. If you want to ignore it in case something I say may not fit your little model, that's your right. I lived what I lived and I saw what I saw. Nothing can change that.
Second of all, as I stated - yes, as I stated - there is some cash economy. And by the way, plenty of "Joe Legals" and "Leroy Legals" in that economy too.....frankly. But NONE of the commercial economy - business to business - is cash. No one buys a house cash. No one builds a condo complex cash. No one sells a service to a property group or a national company cash.
Third of all, the fact that you can get a lower cash price in a lot of instances doesn't mean the majority of the illegals are working in that economy. It proves nothing as far as the point we're talking about here.
But again, given that you and I probably agree on 95% of the politics here, if you want to get all bunched up because I have real world experience you choose not to like, so be it.
Well yes, supply and demand when a once booming area dries up is extreme for a while. It not only drove the labor price down, I’m sure the final product price was beat down too.
Your son’s problem - and I’m sorry to hear it - is why I am a self employed type....but even as “the man” - my pay dipped significantly in the economic crash. I mean SIGNIFICANTLY.
Now I’ve never been involved in construction per se - no home building - so I don’t know if the cheap Hispanic labor is all illegal, or part legal and part illegal. I don’t know how many of them are good at what they do in that industry.
One of the many services we offered was landscape maintenance and landscape installations. In that industry, the Hispanics liked it more, and were on balance just very good at it. They were also culturally aligned with doing the same work day after day for many years, thus providing continuity to the staff.
Were some illegal? Perhaps. I don’t know. They all had paperwork. The e-verify system was not around during the majority of the time I had a hand in the personnel, so I would imagine as e verify works through the system, it will slowly clean it up.
I thank you.
May God bless you and yours.
Thank you for the time and effort.
I imagine it’s just the small, under 100 employees, companies who are flouting the labor laws.
Maybe by paying cash instead of writing a check.
Seems there’s always someone who will try gaming the system.
May God bless you and yours.
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