Dropping the bomb

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/ ^ | Thursday, March 12, 2015 | Steve Hays

[daniel1212]

I'm going to comment on the ethics of nuking Japan. This is one of those perennial issues that America-bashers constantly raise. There are two extremes we need to avoid: "my country right or wrong," and "blame America first." For me the war has a personal dimension. My late father was a WWII vet who served in the Pacific theater. He was radio operator in the Air Force. His squadron conducted reconnaissance over Japan. He had some interesting stories to tell: i) He trained on B-17s in Alaska, then flew on B-29s in Florida. ii) Our pilots discovered the jet stream. They exploited the jet stream as a tailwind, making the planes fly twice as fast. The Japanese figured we must have some secret technology to make our planes so fast. iii) One time their plane crash landed on lift-off. The cause was sabotage. iv) One time he saw ball-lightning form on the outside of the plane. v) One time a window blew and the gunner was sucked out of the plane. vi) My father knew a day before that we were going to drop the A-bomb on Japan. Not because he was in the loop. He was a lowly staff sergeant. It was accidental. He and some buddies were joking with a high-ranking officer on base about dropping that new-fangled A-bomb on Japan. The officer's reaction was horrified–not because it was in bad taste, but because he was in the know. Because his facial reaction as a dead giveaway, he went ahead and told them that, as a matter of fact, they were planning to nuke Japan the very next day. Of course, my dad and his comrades were severely admonished to keep that to themselves. I'll begin by reviewing the standard argument for nuking Japan:

In World War II the Japanese military fought with a ferocity that made al-Qaeda look casual and uncommitted. In Okinawa, the Japanese hurled more than 1,000 kamikaze suicide bombers at the American fleet, and tens of thousands more kamikazes readied to defend the Japanese home islands. Japan still held huge swathes of Chinese territory, where unrelenting war and mass-scale atrocities had already cost more than 10 million Chinese lives.Just as disturbing, recent American experience in Saipan and Okinawa had illustrated the extent to which the Japanese civilian population would suffer in any further close combat. By some counts, up to one-third of the total civilian population of Okinawa died during the American invasion, many by suicide as parents killed children, then themselves, rather than fall into allied hands. At Saipan, Japanese civilians committed suicide by the hundreds — sometimes cutting their own children’s throats — persuaded by Japanese propaganda that Americans would commit unspeakable atrocities against civilians. Assuming similar behavior during an invasion, estimates of additional Japanese casualties ran into the millions — with American casualty estimates wildly varying but certainly no less than hundreds of thousands.Faced with the twin realities of inevitable Japanese defeat and staggering civilian and military casualties, the allies did the right thing: On July 26, they issued a surrender demand, the Potsdam Declaration. The Japanese rejected it, the atomic bombs followed roughly two weeks later, and the war ended.As the horror of World War II begins to fade into distant memory, it’s imperative that we not let the Left control the narrative. Already in pacifist Christian circles, I’ve seen historically illiterate professors and pundits condemn the Hiroshima bombing with greater ferocity than they condemn the rape of Nanking, much less Japan’s years-long reign of terror in China.

http://www.nationalreview.com/node/355313/print

I'll also quote a few statements by Curtis Lamay which gives an idea of how military advisers at the time viewed the conflict:

We’re at war with Japan. We were attacked by Japan. Do you want to kill Japanese, or would you rather have Americans killed?

From his autobiography, also requoted in Rhodes, 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb', p. 596

As far as casualties were concerned I think there were more casualties in the first attack on Tokyo with incendiaries than there were with the first use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. The fact that it's done instantaneously, maybe that's more humane than incendiary attacks, if you can call any war act humane. I don't, particularly, so to me there wasn't much difference. A weapon is a weapon and it really doesn't make much difference how you kill a man. If you have to kill him, well, that's the evil to start with and how you do it becomes pretty secondary. I think your choice should be which weapon is the most efficient and most likely to get the whole mess over with as early as possible.

The World at War: the Landmark Oral History from the Classic TV Series , p. 574

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay

From early on he argued that, "if you are going to use military force, then you ought to use overwhelming military force. Use too much and deliberately use too much... You'll save lives, not only your own, but the enemy's too."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/peopleevents/pandeAMEX61.html

The point isn't that we necessarily agree with him, but in assessing the morality of nuking Japan, as well as the morality of those responsible, we need to take their intentions into account–instead of simply imposing our own viewpoint onto the issue. i) There were some notable critics of the war. Eisenhower and MacArthur opposed dropping the bomb. However, Ike was a political rival who ran against the Truman administration, and MacArthur had an ax to grind with Truman. ii) The problem with alternate history is that, as a matter of fact, we never get a chance to find out how that would have played out. Since the counterfactual alternatives were never tried, we don't know how well or badly they would have fared in comparison with what we actually did. Even if successful, the alternatives would still prolong the war effort, leading to more American dead and wounded. Even in a best case scenario, how many US soldiers should we sacrifice to spare Japanese civilians? And, of course, you could have a worse-case scenario for American soldiers and Japanese civilians alike.

iii) I also expect that Hirohito had a very sheltered upbringing. That would leave him terribly out of touch with reality. It would take something spectacular to shock him into awareness. I'm reminded of The Last Emperor in the Forbidden City. True, that's China rather than Japan. But I presume that in both cases, the royal family had little exposure to the outside world, much less the modern Western world.

iv) One fresh perspective comes from John Wheeler, the renown physicist who worked on the Manhattan project:

When Wheeler learned the news, he was devastated. He blamed himself. “One cannot escape the conclusion that an atomic bomb program started a year earlier and concluded a year sooner would have spared 15 million lives, my brother Joe’s among them,” he wrote in his memoir. “I could—probably—have influenced the decision makers if I had tried.”

http://nautil.us/issue/9/time/haunted-by-his-brother-he-revolutionized-physics

What's striking about Wheeler's lament is that he essentially reframes the discussion. He thinks we should have dropped the bomb sooner! He laments the fact that we didn't develop it faster and deployed it sooner so that we could have ended the war earlier. The sooner WWII ended, the more lives that would save for all parties concerned.

Moreover, that seems to shift the hypothetical to possibly dropping the bomb on Germany. At least for starters.

[Pelham]

“I got in a bit of trouble here when I suggested that the Bill of Rights should only have pertained to Government Institutions, not Private Businesses.”

Do you mean the Civil Rights Act rather than the Bill of Rights? If so then that is the same view as Barry Goldwater in 1964. And Ronald Reagan was one of Goldwater’s most ardent supporters.

Conservatives believed that individuals had the right to believe and behave as they wished. Liberals were more authoritarian and wanted to be able to control everyone. They succeeded so well we now have a lot of today’s “conservatives” singing the praises of the crowning achievement of Great Society liberalism.

[John S Mosby]

I’d go a step further, and cause a row again—there is a line of thinking that says Sec. Stanton (with his pinkerton’s and devious intel people) organized Lincoln’s death (recall that Seward was targeted as well- both men stood in the way of Stanton and the Radicals). The Radicals enabled the oligarchs desire, in seeking punishing revenge on the South along with their rather notable seizure of personal property without right of title. Gen. Benjamin Butler comes to mind among others. Lincoln’s ideas was to unite the South back into the Union— nothing of the sort of Reconstruction which Stanton enabled, and resistance to which President Andrew Johnson was impeached and almost convicted (Johnson being a Southerner). Deo Vindice.

[Talisker]

Never heard that MAGIC-internment coverup theory before. Fascinating. Similar to why Churchill didn’t bomb the death camp railroads.

[QT3.14]

Leaflets dropped on cities in Japan warning civilians about the atomic bomb, dropped c. August 6, 1945

TO THE JAPANESE PEOPLE:

America asks that you take immediate heed of what we say on this leaflet.

We are in possession of the most destructive explosive ever devised by man. A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29s can carry on a single mission. This awful fact is one for you to ponder and we solemnly assure you it is grimly accurate.

We have just begun to use this weapon against your homeland. If you still have any doubt, make inquiry as to what happened to Hiroshima when just one atomic bomb fell on that city.

Before using this bomb to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, we ask that you now petition the Emperor to end the war. Our president has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrender. We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better and peace-loving Japan.

You should take steps now to cease military resistance. Otherwise, we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all our other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war.

EVACUATE YOUR CITIES.

ATTENTION JAPANESE PEOPLE. EVACUATE YOUR CITIES.

Because your military leaders have rejected the thirteen part surrender declaration, two momentous events have occurred in the last few days.

The Soviet Union, because of this rejection on the part of the military has notified your Ambassador Sato that it has declared war on your nation. Thus, all powerful countries of the world are now at war with you.

Also, because of your leaders' refusal to accept the surrender declaration that would enable Japan to honorably end this useless war, we have employed our atomic bomb.

A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29s could have carried on a single mission. Radio Tokyo has told you that with the first use of this weapon of total destruction, Hiroshima was virtually destroyed.

Before we use this bomb again and again to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, petition the emperor now to end the war. Our president has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrender. We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better, and peace-loving Japan.

Act at once or we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all our other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war.

EVACUATE YOUR CITIES.

Source: Harry S. Truman Library, Miscellaneous historical document file, no. 258.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

Yes, there will be plenty of judgement to go around.

[Pelham]

“Similar to why Churchill didn’t bomb the death camp railroads.”

I don’t know that one. I had assumed it wasn’t done for any number of reasons.

A rail line can quickly be rebuilt. Like overnight. This isn’t high technology.

Bombs in that era weren’t all that accurate and you were likely to hit the camps if you bombed near them. That’s why you dropped a lot of bombs in order to hit your primary.

Bombers were assigned to targets that would hasten the end of the war. Hitting the railways to the death camps would have been a feel good exercise that accomplished little.

Anyway I’ll be curious to learn the Churchill story.

[Pelham]

The suspicion of Stanton goes right back to the day of Lincoln’s assassination as I recall.

Your other points are interesting as well. Lincoln wasn’t one of the Radical Republicans and they could well have decided he was in their way.

Thaddeus Stevens for one had been accused of having killed a pregnant black woman in Gettysburg around 1830- what would yet another murder be? Especially one that pushed him closer to the reins of power.

[Talisker]

I don’t think the effect of the bombing of railroads would have been as trivial as you make it out to be, especially since the bombing of Germany was incessant and could be repeated at will. In addition, steel was precious to Germany and their industrial infrastructure was being smashed, so even repairs would have been seriously problematic.

As for Churchill, what I read was that much of the death camp information was confirmed through coded messages decrypted by ENIGMA. So if they acted on it, the fear was Germany would respond by shifting to another code system entirely. Not letting on that ENIGMA existed through Allied actions was huge part of using it effectively.

[Pelham]

That’s interesting about Enigma, a very similar story to Magic.

Rail lines weren’t all that tough to repair. Bomb craters got filled with gravel. Damaged rail was heated and straightened or rail borrowed from a less traveled line. And if the Germans had decided not to repair the rails the inmates would simply have starved and new arrivals made to walk any breaks in the line.

When the Germans learned that we would make repeated strikes at a target they would move flak 88 guns in to greet the bombers. I’m sure they would have done the same around the camps. You might surprise them once but not many times afterwards.

[Kickass Conservative]

Yeah, Civil Rights Act, duh...

Long day, LOL

[schurmann]

“...Before we dropped the bomb we had total mastery of the sea around Japan, and the air above Japan. ...”

False.

By August Allied naval forces were not opposed by the Imperial Japanese Navy (submarines excepted) in their actions south and east of the Home Islands. They still drew hostile fire when they came within range of the coasts.

Allied submarines had sortied into the Sea of Japan and waters north and west of the Home Islands in small numbers and for brief periods. No Allied surface vessels had yet ventured there. And no land air bases existed, close enough to allow Allied air power to go there.

Air superiority had not yet been established over the home Islands. USAAF’s B-29s struck targets pretty much at will, succeeding in getting in and coming back out only because of their high speed and high altitude cruise capabilities; they sustained daily losses, right to the end of hostilities. Losses were minimized only because massed B-29 raids were conducted almost exclusively at night - no Japanese night air intercept capability - and Japanese air defenses rarely attacked small bomber formations in daylight.

Despite the taking of Iwo Jima and Okinawa, the Home Islands still lay at extreme range for Allied fighters. USN carrier air capabilities were too small, and possessed of such short range capabilities, that they were of no help. Too, coordination between USN and USAAF forces was poor, in some cases on purpose.

[Joe Boucher]

and a very good thing the bombs were dropped or else your father would have most likely been assigned to invade Japans mainland.
Estimates are that would have cost at least a half million American soldiers.
We did not start the war, Japan did by attacking Pearl Harbor.
They did unspeakable attrocities against us, China, Korea,and nearly every other nation in southeast asia.
Hell with em.

[2ndDivisionVet]

He was already on Okinawa, which is now considered the 47th Prefecture of Japan, so yeah, almost certainly he would’ve been in the invasion.

[daniel1212]

There was also Operation Unthinkable:

Operation Unthinkable was a code name of two related plans of a conflict between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. Both were ordered by British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in 1945 and developed by the British Armed Forces’ Joint Planning Staff at the end of World War II in Europe.

The first of the two assumed a surprise attack on the Soviet forces stationed in Germany in order to “impose the will of the Western Allies” on the Soviets and force Joseph Stalin to honour the agreements in regards to the future of Central Europe.[citation needed] When the odds were judged “fanciful”, the original plan was abandoned. The code name was used instead for a defensive scenario, in which the British were to defend against a Soviet drive towards the North Sea and the Atlantic following the withdrawal of the American forces from the continent.

The study became the first Cold War-era contingency plan for war with the Soviet Union.[2] Both plans were highly secret at the time of their creation and it was not until 1998 that they were made public.[3]...

The Chiefs of Staff were concerned that given the enormous size of Soviet forces deployed in Europe at the end of the war, and the perception that the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin was unreliable, there existed a Soviet threat to Western Europe. The Soviet numerical superiority was roughly 4:1 in men and 2:1 in tanks at the end of hostilities in Europe.[1] The Soviet Union had yet to launch its attack on Japanese forces, and so one assumption in the report was that the Soviet Union would instead ally with Japan if the Western Allies commenced hostilities.

The hypothetical date for the start of the Allied invasion of Soviet-held Europe was scheduled for 1 July 1945.[1] The plan assumed a surprise attack by up to 47 British and American divisions in the area of Dresden, in the middle of Soviet lines.[1] This represented almost half of the roughly 100 divisions (approximately 2.5 million men) available to the British, American and Canadian headquarters at that time.[3]

The plan was taken by the British Chiefs of Staff Committee as militarily unfeasible due to a three-to-one superiority of Soviet land forces in Europe and the Middle East, where the conflict was projected to take place. The majority of any offensive operation would have been undertaken by American and British forces, as well as Polish forces and up to 100,000 German Wehrmacht soldiers. Any quick success would be due to surprise alone. If a quick success could not be obtained before the onset of winter, the assessment was that the Allies would be committed to a protracted total war. In the report of 22 May 1945, an offensive operation was deemed “hazardous”.

In response to an instruction by Churchill of 10 June 1945, a follow-up report was written concerning “what measures would be required to ensure the security of the British Isles in the event of war with Russia in the near future”.[5] United States forces were relocating to the Pacific for a planned invasion of Japan, and Churchill was concerned that this reduction in supporting forces would leave the Soviets in a strong position to take offensive action in Western Europe. The report concluded that if the United States focused on the Pacific Theatre, Great Britain’s odds “would become fanciful.”[6]

The Joint Planning Staff rejected Churchill’s notion of retaining bridgeheads on the continent as having no operational advantage. It was envisaged that Britain would use its air force and navy to resist, although a threat from mass rocket attack was anticipated, with no means of resistance except for strategic bombing.

Subsequent discussions

By 1946 tensions and conflicts were developing between Allied-occupied and Soviet-occupied areas of Europe. These were seen as being potential triggers for a wider conflict. One such area was the Julian March (which was applied to an area of southeastern Europe, today split among Croatia, Slovenia, and Italy), and on 30 August 1946 informal discussions took place between the British and US Chiefs of Staff concerning how such a conflict could develop and the best strategy for conducting a European war.[7] Again the issue of retaining a bridgehead on the continent was discussed, with Dwight D. Eisenhower preferring a withdrawal to the Low Countries, rather than Italy, for their proximity to the United Kingdom. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

[daniel1212]

Because none of them spent any time in a Japanese concentration camp.

Indeed. Talk about "cruel and unusual punishment."

[daniel1212]

Now the threat under demonic liberalism is to withhold aid unless a country agrees to support abortion and homosexuality, etc., thus essentially forcing a country to commit eventual suicide.

[ealgeone]

Yet the Soviet Union and the resultant proxy battles are a reminder of the consequences of strengthening evil (leaders) to fight evil, and not dealing with the consequences when you could have. Patton wanted to arm the Germans to fight Russia, foreseeing the evil Not sure if that was feasible, but my unlearned though is that the US should have indeed seen humanitarian and some military help to Russia (which they seemed for forget), but not to the extent that they became an advancing army who even got to Berlin first. And obtained resources that became a problem for the US and the world.

In hindsight I agree, but at the time we were glad the soviets and Nazis were bleeding each other. Meant fewer of our troops would have to fight and die.

[daniel1212]

In hindsight I agree, but at the time we were glad the soviets and Nazis were bleeding each other. Meant fewer of our troops would have to fight and die.

True, but short term gain, long term loss.

[daniel1212]

Also, while not that advanced, you had the Japanese nuclear weapon program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nuclear_weapon_program

[Elsie]

February 12th, 2015 / by Barbara Johnson
http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/georgia-amateur-divers-find-long-lost-nuclear-warhead/

 Savannah, GA

 

 

 

A couple of tourists from Canada made a surprising discovery while scuba diving in Wassaw Sound, a small bay located on the shores of Georgia.

 

Jason Sutter and Christina Murray were admiring the marine life of the area when they stumbled upon a Mark 15 thermonuclear bomb that had been lost
by the United States Air Force more than 50 years ago.

 

The couple from London in Ontario, was on a two week vacation in Georgia and Florida to practice their f, GAavorite hobby, scuba diving, when they decided to dive
near the shores of Tybee Island. While admiring the plants and fishes near the sea floor, they noticed a large cylindrical item partially covered by sand.
They investigated the object and found out that it was actually a sort of bomb or missile, so they decided to contact the authorities.
“I noticed an object that looked like a metal cylinder, which I thought was an oil barrel.” says Jason Sutter.
“When I dug it up a bit, I noticed that it was actually a lot bigger and that there was some writing on the side. When I saw the inscription saying
that it was a Mk-15 nuclear bomb, I totally freaked out. I caught Christina by the arm and made signs to tell her we had to leave.
We made an emergency ascent, went back to shore and then we called 911.”

 

 

 

The couple is still shocked after their frightening discovery and say they will avoid diving for the rest of their trip.
Rapidly understanding the gravity of the situation, the 911 operator contacted every possible emergency service, including the coast guard and the military,
leading to the deployment of more than 20 ships and 1500 men in the area. Using the GPS coordinates given by the couple, they rapidly located
the powerful 3.8 megaton bomb.

 

An unmanned submarine was sent to determine the condition of the bomb, before explosive experts were sent to disarm it.
Fortunately, the thermonuclear weapon produced in 1955 seemed in sufficiently good shape for a team of Navy seals to try to defuse it.
They successfully deactivated the warhead after hours of strenuous work, allowing the rest of the bomb to be moved.
The delicate recovery operation took more than 48 hours, but the bomb was finally recovered and transported Mayport Naval Station
in Florida. A full set of tests and analysis will now be performed on the warhead to evaluate its actual state and the possible
ecological and health hazard that its presence in the bay for 50 years could represent.

 

 

Navy explosive ordnance Disposal technicians spent nearly five hours working on the warhead before they were able to extract the detonator
and the uranium core of the weapon, allowing the fuselage to be moved.

 

The federal and state authorities were well-aware that a nuclear warhead had been lost in the area in the 1950’s and had never been recovered,
but no efforts had been done for years to recover it. It was lost on the night of February 5, 1958, when a B-47 Stratojet bomber carrying the
7,600-pound hydrogen bomb on a simulated combat mission off the coast of Georgia collided with an F-86 Saberjet fighter at 36,000 feet of altitude.
The collision destroyed the fighter and severely damaged a wing of the bomber, leaving one of its engines partially dislodged.

 

The bomber’s pilot, Maj. Howard Richardson, was instructed by the Homestead Air Force Base in Florida to jettison the H-bomb
before attempting a landing. Richardson dropped the bomb into the shallow waters of Wassaw Sound, near the mouth of the Savannah River,
where he believed the bomb would be swiftly recovered. The crew did not see an explosion when the bomb struck the sea and they managed
to land the B-47 safely at the nearest base.

 

For the following six weeks, the Air Force looked for the bomb without success. Underwater divers scoured the depths, troops tromped
through nearby salt marshes, and a blimp hovered over the area attempting to spot a hole or crater in the beach or swamp.
Searches were finally abandoned and the bomb remained lost for more than 50 years until the couple discovered it. 

 

 More info --->  https://www.google.com/search?q=Mark+15+thermonuclear+bomb&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADRA_enUS475&gws_rd=ssl