Dropping the bomb

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/ ^ | Thursday, March 12, 2015 | Steve Hays

[daniel1212]

I'm going to comment on the ethics of nuking Japan. This is one of those perennial issues that America-bashers constantly raise. There are two extremes we need to avoid: "my country right or wrong," and "blame America first." For me the war has a personal dimension. My late father was a WWII vet who served in the Pacific theater. He was radio operator in the Air Force. His squadron conducted reconnaissance over Japan. He had some interesting stories to tell: i) He trained on B-17s in Alaska, then flew on B-29s in Florida. ii) Our pilots discovered the jet stream. They exploited the jet stream as a tailwind, making the planes fly twice as fast. The Japanese figured we must have some secret technology to make our planes so fast. iii) One time their plane crash landed on lift-off. The cause was sabotage. iv) One time he saw ball-lightning form on the outside of the plane. v) One time a window blew and the gunner was sucked out of the plane. vi) My father knew a day before that we were going to drop the A-bomb on Japan. Not because he was in the loop. He was a lowly staff sergeant. It was accidental. He and some buddies were joking with a high-ranking officer on base about dropping that new-fangled A-bomb on Japan. The officer's reaction was horrified–not because it was in bad taste, but because he was in the know. Because his facial reaction as a dead giveaway, he went ahead and told them that, as a matter of fact, they were planning to nuke Japan the very next day. Of course, my dad and his comrades were severely admonished to keep that to themselves. I'll begin by reviewing the standard argument for nuking Japan:

In World War II the Japanese military fought with a ferocity that made al-Qaeda look casual and uncommitted. In Okinawa, the Japanese hurled more than 1,000 kamikaze suicide bombers at the American fleet, and tens of thousands more kamikazes readied to defend the Japanese home islands. Japan still held huge swathes of Chinese territory, where unrelenting war and mass-scale atrocities had already cost more than 10 million Chinese lives.Just as disturbing, recent American experience in Saipan and Okinawa had illustrated the extent to which the Japanese civilian population would suffer in any further close combat. By some counts, up to one-third of the total civilian population of Okinawa died during the American invasion, many by suicide as parents killed children, then themselves, rather than fall into allied hands. At Saipan, Japanese civilians committed suicide by the hundreds — sometimes cutting their own children’s throats — persuaded by Japanese propaganda that Americans would commit unspeakable atrocities against civilians. Assuming similar behavior during an invasion, estimates of additional Japanese casualties ran into the millions — with American casualty estimates wildly varying but certainly no less than hundreds of thousands.Faced with the twin realities of inevitable Japanese defeat and staggering civilian and military casualties, the allies did the right thing: On July 26, they issued a surrender demand, the Potsdam Declaration. The Japanese rejected it, the atomic bombs followed roughly two weeks later, and the war ended.As the horror of World War II begins to fade into distant memory, it’s imperative that we not let the Left control the narrative. Already in pacifist Christian circles, I’ve seen historically illiterate professors and pundits condemn the Hiroshima bombing with greater ferocity than they condemn the rape of Nanking, much less Japan’s years-long reign of terror in China.

http://www.nationalreview.com/node/355313/print

I'll also quote a few statements by Curtis Lamay which gives an idea of how military advisers at the time viewed the conflict:

We’re at war with Japan. We were attacked by Japan. Do you want to kill Japanese, or would you rather have Americans killed?

From his autobiography, also requoted in Rhodes, 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb', p. 596

As far as casualties were concerned I think there were more casualties in the first attack on Tokyo with incendiaries than there were with the first use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. The fact that it's done instantaneously, maybe that's more humane than incendiary attacks, if you can call any war act humane. I don't, particularly, so to me there wasn't much difference. A weapon is a weapon and it really doesn't make much difference how you kill a man. If you have to kill him, well, that's the evil to start with and how you do it becomes pretty secondary. I think your choice should be which weapon is the most efficient and most likely to get the whole mess over with as early as possible.

The World at War: the Landmark Oral History from the Classic TV Series , p. 574

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay

From early on he argued that, "if you are going to use military force, then you ought to use overwhelming military force. Use too much and deliberately use too much... You'll save lives, not only your own, but the enemy's too."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/peopleevents/pandeAMEX61.html

The point isn't that we necessarily agree with him, but in assessing the morality of nuking Japan, as well as the morality of those responsible, we need to take their intentions into account–instead of simply imposing our own viewpoint onto the issue. i) There were some notable critics of the war. Eisenhower and MacArthur opposed dropping the bomb. However, Ike was a political rival who ran against the Truman administration, and MacArthur had an ax to grind with Truman. ii) The problem with alternate history is that, as a matter of fact, we never get a chance to find out how that would have played out. Since the counterfactual alternatives were never tried, we don't know how well or badly they would have fared in comparison with what we actually did. Even if successful, the alternatives would still prolong the war effort, leading to more American dead and wounded. Even in a best case scenario, how many US soldiers should we sacrifice to spare Japanese civilians? And, of course, you could have a worse-case scenario for American soldiers and Japanese civilians alike.

iii) I also expect that Hirohito had a very sheltered upbringing. That would leave him terribly out of touch with reality. It would take something spectacular to shock him into awareness. I'm reminded of The Last Emperor in the Forbidden City. True, that's China rather than Japan. But I presume that in both cases, the royal family had little exposure to the outside world, much less the modern Western world.

iv) One fresh perspective comes from John Wheeler, the renown physicist who worked on the Manhattan project:

When Wheeler learned the news, he was devastated. He blamed himself. “One cannot escape the conclusion that an atomic bomb program started a year earlier and concluded a year sooner would have spared 15 million lives, my brother Joe’s among them,” he wrote in his memoir. “I could—probably—have influenced the decision makers if I had tried.”

http://nautil.us/issue/9/time/haunted-by-his-brother-he-revolutionized-physics

What's striking about Wheeler's lament is that he essentially reframes the discussion. He thinks we should have dropped the bomb sooner! He laments the fact that we didn't develop it faster and deployed it sooner so that we could have ended the war earlier. The sooner WWII ended, the more lives that would save for all parties concerned.

Moreover, that seems to shift the hypothetical to possibly dropping the bomb on Germany. At least for starters.

[daniel1212]

Other interesting posts today: http://triablogue.blogspot.com/

[Pelham]

Paul Fussel’s famous essay “Thank God for the Atom Bomb”:

https://www.uio.no/studier/emner/hf/iakh/HIS1300MET/v12/undervisningsmateriale/Fussel%20-%20thank%20god%20for%20the%20atom%20bomb.pdf

[2ndDivisionVet]

My late father was in the battle for Okinawa at the time.

[Pelham]

There was at least one very high ranking officer who opposed using the atomic bomb, Fleet Admiral William Leahy.

Most Americans have never heard of him but he was the highest ranking American military officer of WWII, and FDR’s Chief of Staff.

http://www.doug-long.com/leahy.htm

[colorado tanker]

The bombs saved hundreds of thousands of American lives. Given what happened on Okinawa, we know they also saved millions of Japanese lives. I have corresponded with FReepers who believe their fathers would not have come home from WWII had the bombs not been dropped.

The hate America crowd does not have a leg to stand on in this argument.

The Japanese, who never came to terms with their war crimes as the Germans did, use the bombs to try to guilt the U.S. and play the victim. The fact is, they only have themselves and their brutal aggression to blame.

[Maine Mariner]

The author brings up a a very good point; suppose we did not use nuclear weapons and the war went on for another year.
How many people living the hundreds of slave labor camps would have died? I am sure it would have been hundreds of thousands.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

I don’t care.

And if we nuke ISIS or Mecca, I don’t care about that either.

You start it. We finish it.

[Maine Mariner]

The author brings up a a very good point; suppose we did not use nuclear weapons and the war went on for another year.
How many people living the hundreds of slave labor camps would have died? I am sure it would have been hundreds of thousands.

[Pelham]

My father was in Patch’s 7th Army in Europe. They were waiting to see when they would be shipped out to the Pacific to join in the invasion of Japan.

[daniel1212]

Ping

[kaehurowing]

As someone whose family (as civilians) lived through Pearl Harbor, this one has always been a no-brainer for me. They weren’t hurt but some of their neighbors were killed.

[kaehurowing]

http://saturdaybriefing.outrigger.com/featured-post/pearl-harbor-attack-killed-a-lot-of-civilians-too/

[daniel1212]

The Japanese, who never came to terms with their war crimes as the Germans did, use the bombs to try to guilt the U.S. and play the victim. The fact is, they only have themselves and their brutal aggression to blame.

They were militaristic indeed, while the liberal's accusations make any from the Japanese look mild. In the liberal mind man is basically good, not fallen, and thus everything from spanking to wars can never be just.

Thus manifestations of the sinful nature of man as seen with ISIs does not compute, as they imagine that without Biblical morality and its precepts which they abhor, then man would be as they imagine. Esp. with the likes of Reagan gone.

[daniel1212]

Most Americans have never heard of him but he was the highest ranking American military officer of WWII, and FDR’s Chief of Staff.

Never heard of him indeed.

[RedHeeler]

Were you ever stationed in FRG? You are wrong about Germans coming to understand their War Crimes. You are absolutely wrong. You, could not be more wrong, ever.

[daniel1212]

My late father was in the battle for Okinawa at the time.

Now honored for his service.

[ealgeone]

The Japs bombed Pearl Harbor....we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

If you can't finish a war don't start one.

WWII....the last time we fought like we should until Desert Storm.

[ConorMacNessa]

I received my Purple Heart in August, 1969. I received it from the hands of my Father, a career naval officer who enlisted before his 18th birthday in February, 1945. The Purple Heart that my Father pinned on me in 1969 was one of approximately one million Purple Heart Medals cast in 1945 in anticipation of that number of casualties to be sustained in the American Invasion of the Japanese Home Islands.

My Father was in Radioman "A" School in Spring 1945, and later awaiting deployment to the Pacific.

August 1945, the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing thousand of Japanese and saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of American Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen, among them, my Father.

My Father lived on to serve in Korea on the USS Borie - DD-704, in peacetime, and later, with boots on the ground in Vietnam.

Also important to me, selfish though I may be, is that he also lived on to engender me.

If you are among the men and women who were wounded in our wars since 1945 - whether in Korea, Vietnam, or more recently, if you have a Purple Heart Medal in a black leatherette case - the WWII style of case - you have one of the medals that were cast back in 1945.

I wish no harm to any man, woman or child, but if I had been Harry S Truman in August 1945, I would also have aithorized those bombings.

"I am an American fighting man. I serve in the forces which guard my country and our way of life.
I am prepared to give my life in their defense."

[Advil000]

Yes, there are things that revisionists completely ignore.

One of them is that whether we used the bomb during that war or not, the bomb was going to be developed. There was no mythical option C where the world never developed the bomb.

We can play what if forever, but the long term effects of using the bomb during WWII may have also kept us from it during the cold war. We ALL had the pictures and data showing what would happen. If the bomb had not been used in war against Japan, would the USA and the Soviet Union have had to actually engage each other with them before we understood the concept of MAD?

Just imagine if neither of our nations had any real use examples to draw from during the really scary moments of the cold war?

Or imagine yet another scenario. We never use the bomb, but China or Russia or Germany did first during some other conflict soon after.

How much different would history have been? For the better? Hard to imagine how it could have been better.

Because as I started out saying, the bomb was going to be developed during those years whether we used it or not.

It’s sobering and disturbing to contemplate all the other ways history could have played out.

[daniel1212]

The author brings up a a very good point; suppose we did not use nuclear weapons and the war went on for another year. How many people living the hundreds of slave labor camps would have died? I am sure it would have been hundreds of thousands.

And then the liberals would blame therm for that, as they did not have George Bush, and or global warming.