Posted on 12/04/2013 3:17:41 PM PST by servo1969
A sixty-seven year old proud atheist friend of mine recently interjected the sweeping statement “all religion is irrational” into one of our conversations. I replied, not with a direct rebuttal but, instead, with the unexpected question, “who is Jesus Christ?” He replied, “I don’t know.” If I were to ask some of you why I pulled that question out of left field you might also reply with a bewildered “I don’t know.” So keep reading. Please.
If you have never really pondered the question “who is Jesus Christ?” then you simply cannot consider yourself to be a committed intellectual – at least not yet. Let me say that in a different way: if you have never given serious thought to the true identity of the most important individual ever to walk the face of the earth then you are either a) suffering from severe intellectual hernia, or b) possessed of an intellect impaired by a fear of knowing the true answer to the question.
Let me begin by defending the assertion that Jesus Christ was the most important individual ever to walk the face of the earth. 1) We divide time using the date of Jesus’ birth. 2) More books have been written about Jesus than anyone else in recorded history. Case closed. Now we can move on to the issue of fear and intellectual curiosity.
The options we are given for understanding the identity of Jesus are so limited that no one who is truly intelligent can be behaving rationally if he just avoids the question altogether. Take, for example, my friend who has lived 2/3 of a century on this planet without so much as attempting to work through the options. I don’t want you to be one of those irrational people so let’s get to work.
When addressing the question of Jesus’ identity, there are only four available options. Anyone who has ever read C.S. Lewis or Josh McDowell knows that Jesus was either: 1) A legend, 2) a lunatic, 3) a liar, or 4) the Lord.
The idea that Jesus was merely a legend, as opposed to someone who actually lived, is simply not an option we can take seriously (at least not for long). Independent historical accounts, by that I mean accounts written by non-Christians, are enough to put this option to rest. Jesus is cited by 42 sources within 150 years of his life, and nine of those sources are non-Christian. By contrast, the Roman Emperor Tiberius is only mentioned by 10 sources. If you believe Tiberius existed, how can you not believe in a man who is cited by four times as many people and has had an immeasurably greater impact on history? You can believe that if you wish. But then you risk forfeiting any claim to be considered rational.
Nor is it rational to consider Jesus to have been a lunatic. Perhaps you could maintain that belief if you’ve never read the Bible. But how can a person claim to be educated if he’s never read the Bible?
World Magazine editor Marvin Olasky once entertained the notion that Jesus was a mere lunatic. But, then, in the early 1970s, as an atheist and a communist graduate student, he examined the words of Jesus for the first time. He was traveling to Russia on a ship and wanted to brush up on his Russian. But all he had with him to read (that just happened to be written in Russian) was a copy of the New Testament. And so he read. And he was transformed.
Marvin recognized immediately that the words of Jesus represent a profound level of moral understanding that rises above anything else that has ever been written. Read for yourself the words of Jesus. Then read the words of Charles Manson. Try to convince me that they are one in the same – merely two lunatics who mistakenly thought they were the Messiah. You have a right to that opinion. But you don’t have a right to be considered rational if you cannot detect a glaring difference between the teachings of Christ and Manson.
So, now only two options remain. And this is where the real trouble begins. If we call Jesus a liar (who falsely claimed to be God) then we cannot also call him a great moral teacher. One cannot be both. But many look at the final option of calling him Lord and panic. To go there means to accept belief in the supernatural. And surely that couldn’t be rational. Or could it?
Science has taught us a lot since the Bible was written. For one thing, we know that the universe had a beginning. It is expanding, it is finite, and it was not always here. Put simply, Carl Sagan was wrong. In fact, he was dead wrong. The cosmos is not all that is or was or that ever will be. It had a beginning. It is irrational to dismiss the obvious implications of this: that the universe was caused by a supernatural force existing outside of space and time.
People have to let go of the idea that the natural world is all there is because that is not where the science leads us. It instead leads us away from the philosophical commitment to only considering naturalistic explanations for the things we observe in the physical universe. This also leads us to one very important question: if a supernatural force was great enough to create the universe could the force or being not also reenter creation? And another related question: is the force or being responsible for creating life not also able to conquer death?
Arguably, the resurrection is a pretty small accomplishment in comparison with the creation of the universe. But that doesn’t mean it happened. The evidence must be judged on its own merits. I recommend that serious intellectuals start here.
Of course, you could just keep avoiding the question while judging others to be irrational. But there’s no avoiding the plank in your own eye.
We are all murderers and rapists in our hearts. It's only a matter of self-control that many of us don't go there. You know the saying. "There but for the grace of Go, go I."
It reminded me of a conversation my wife and I had the other day about the unfettered access to pornography the internet has unleashed.
My wife pointed out that as much as we may want to blame the internet for the pornography addiction many men and women find themselves struggling with today. There was already a desire in their hearts for it before the internet removed the barrier that used to make them slink down the alley to satisfy at the adult book store.
Jesus said that if you desire evil in your heart, you are just as guilty as if you committed the evil. Something the Pharisees could not comprehend, but as you say, "but for the grace of God, go I.
Thanks for reminding me.
If you do not want to live by God’s standards on earth, why would you want to live by his standards in heaven?
It is thus you who chose the place you go.
Someone once said that they believe in God, and trust in Christ to be their Savior, but they personally cannot deal with all the hypocrites in church so they go it alone. I asked them if they refuse to be around them on earth, why would you want to be around them in heaven.
God is not a cosmic rapist, he is not going to force you to love him. You must love him willingly. Would you want your wife to be forced to be with your, or would you want her to be with you willingly?
This is the way it will be in heaven. God will not force anyone to be around him that does not want to be around him willingly.
So by your rejection of him here in the world, you are guaranteeing that he will reject you when it comes time to decide where you will spend eternity. It is after all, your choice, not His. So why blame Him for what you desire?
We will all die one day, and once we are dead there is no choice as to where you will go. The time to decide where you desire to spend eternity is while you live. So purchase your ticket before you board the train of death, because once on it there are no refunds, and no switching destinations.
To blame the Railroad Engineer because you purchased a ticket to a destination you chose but now would rather go where those on the other train are going is incredulous to say the least.
The time to purchase the right ticket is before you board it, and you may not like the price, but who are you to decide the price of the ticket? You want to board the train with all the amenities, while paying the price of coach. Either you pay the price required or not, but don’t get mad at the Engineer for getting what you paid for.
I suggest you pay the price required to board the train you want that will take you to the destination you want to get to. Thus, the price is accepting the Son as your Lord and savior. The price is the same for each and every person boarding the train to heaven, as is the price for boarding the train to hell is rejection of the King.
I’ll pray that you purchase the right ticket.
true, but not even Abraham knew until God told him that in his seed all peoples of the world would be blessed.
Then it took God handing down the law to Moses to learn about certain do’s and dont’s about life, and unless Buddha was and Israelite, he would not have been given the law which many of the things he taught were from.
The crime is a rejection of said parent while looking to another as a parent.
What child would reject their parent that was loving, for another parent they were not born to? Another who treats them like the criminal you claim belongs in prison for bad treatment.
You just don’t get it. By saying no, you are rejecting your Father. The one who gives you everything already. All he asks is that you love Him and accept His gift of the Son as your Savior, but you would rather accept Barabbas.
Somehow you have completely missed my point.
My point is this: the punishment should fit the crime.
If some judge decided that an appropriate punishment for, say, rape and murder was to have the perp doused with gasoline and set on fire and burn until crispy, I think the Supreme Court would rule that cruel and unusual punishment.
Yet most Protestants think Mother Teresa and the Pope is going to burn for eternity, and justly so. And most Catholics think the same thing about Protestants.
Let me state my point one more time. No loving person (or Person) would allow someone to suffer excruciating pain for eternity. No crime fits that punishment.
You never know who God spoke to in their hearts. As I type this, there are hundreds of stories about Muslims in places like Saudi Arabia that had a dream about Christ. It was that dream that they accepted Christ through.
So to say many, many people died without the chance of being saved because they never heard of jesus is wrong.
God speaks to the heart, because he put eternity in our hearts. Just as he spoke to Abraham who’s father was an idol maker, yet he chose Abraham to send His Son through as the savior of mankind.
No one talked to Abraham about the truth, only GOD!
I see you have issues with the authenticity of the Bible. Is that your first stumbling block?
I think I addressed this in post 309, which you did not respond to.
That’s very perceptive of you. What was your first clue?
No, you don’t get it.
The only way to enter into heaven is to be PERFECT!
So, if you are not PERFECT, as we all are not, then you need a pass. That pass is accepting Christ as your eternal sacrifice for the sins you committed.
We all commit sins. Did you live a perfect life as Christ did?
No, so you need to accept Him to get a pass.
So tell me. Why would you want to be in heaven around God if you think He is way too harsh?
Do not complain when you are in hell, because YOU CHOSE IT!
You need to stop kicking against the goads and understand that it has to do with perfection.
Can you be, are you, PERFECT?
Anything that falls short of God’s expected PERFECTION is a sin, and all sin is the same.
There is no level of evil to God, we are the ones that put one form of evil over another.
To God, hating someone is as evil as having sex with a two year old, which is as evil as burning 6 million Jews in a oven, as is thinking of sleeping with your neighbors wife is.
No one, but Christ ever lived a perfect life. That is why he was the perfect unblemished sacrifice, that took away the sin of those who put their faith in Him to do so.
When you face god, you will see your life pass before you. god will ask, who stands for this man’s sins. It will either be Christ who died for you, or you by yourself.
If you chose yourself, then the punishment will be the same for you as it is for Hitler, Ted Bundy, and the sweet little old lady down the street who thinks her salvation comes from Buddha.
Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord, but many who do, will still go to hell because they did not do so when they were alive.
They purchased the wrong ticket.
Like it or not, but standing down here and shaking your fist at God will not get you into heaven. God does not change his opinion just because some liberal judge thinks He is unfair.
You have your choice.
I suggest you choose wisely!
I posted the below in post #309. I think it gets to what you are discussing:
Post 309:
Roasted goat...Good one:) I am going to use that one in the future if you don’t mind.
The interesting point missed is you always have an open invitation to be gathered with the sheep.
God did not leave us out there flapping either. He provided a Way to “get right” with Him. The entire purpose for God communicating with us through His Word. Faithful and obedient servants throughout history wrote it down. Amazingly He took our form to be tortured shedding His Royal Blood dying on a cross and three days later rising from the dead for us ungrateful dirty nasty sinners. So why would we have a bone to pick with Him after doing that and extending us an engraved invitation?
Deal is most don’t want to change and put on Christ. Most love their own ways and love their sin. So they pin the blame on God for roasting goats.
Hey let’s say I am your 19 year old son and you worked hard for 19 years saving money to send me your pride and joy to college. You even give me money to live comfortable there. What would you do if instead of bringing home “A’s” I was doing drugs and getting arrested? I am sure you would cut off the money and look for a way to get me help. But instead I decided to give you the middle digit and move into a crack house. I am sure you would keep trying to save me from myself and would leave the door open hoping I would come home. If I did you would rejoice your lost son has come home; if I stayed in the crack house I would die.
Now I ask...Would you allow a son who is still shooting up drugs in your house with your other children? I am sure you would not. Of course you would demand your rules be obeyed. And as I stated above you provided, in love, the way to get back in the house.
So the real story is me the son, I am roasting myself and you the dad provided the way to be the sheep.
At first it seemed you rejected scriptures based on God's eternal punishment of those who reject Him. Then you stated you did not know or believe the Bible was true at all. So obviously you have to solve the first problem on determining the scriptures as faithful and true before you can commentary on its content. The way I see it, if you don't believe the report is authentic, then it matters not what you think about 'roasted goat.'
Logically, if you don't even believe in God's existence or don't except the Biblical God then 'roasted goat' to you is absurd.
I guess my next question would be is why do you reject the authenticity of scriptures? Do you have evidence to refute the authenticity?
Would you question the “authenticity” of a document whose major premise was: the cow jumped over the moon?
Is it reasonable to question the legitimacy of a document whose major premise is: God really, really loves you, and if you don’t believe it, He will allow/arrange for you to burn in hell forever?
Both of the premises are ridiculous.
That is the type of thing liberals say about this pro-God site, but many contrived things atheists have said about God here example a superficial view of God.
The bottom line is, if someone such as myself, who examines carefully the message of the gospel and then says, “thanks, but no thanks, I honestly don’t believe it,” the result (assuming the Bible is true) is that I will be tortured beyond our ability to comprehend forever without end. I find that impossible to reconcile with the notion of an infinitely loving God. That’s one reason why I have so much trouble believing it.
Your idea is that infinitely loving God precludes eternal justice based upon your life choices here, which life is a test, not wanting Christ because you love sin over Him, and which determines eternity.
. I do understand this is a dilemma, which is part of an aspect of theology called theodicy , but perhaps you allow that evil should be punished, but that eternity is too much even for a Hitler. In which case you must find some way to punish such a one, and think it is just that they simply are killed in the end. Or that only a few are so evil as to be worthy of something more.
I disagree, and being simply toasted in the end hardly is a deterrent to living a life indulging one's lusts. And what Scripture reveals is that this life is a test, and every man is going to live forever somewhere.
While I do not know what the least amount of eternal punishment will be, I do not believe anyone who truly wants what Christ represents will be damned, as they will find the mercy of God in Christ, salvation being in no other. And which does not take much intellect, but a humble and contrite heart.
The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psalms 34:18)
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (Luke 8:15)
We are redeemed on Christ's expense and credit, but a soul who effectually choice Christ is implicitly repentant, with a honest heart knowing they have sinned and want cleansing, and a new life in Christ will follow. Those who are not repentant will never effectually believe.
OK, we've deduced that you think God isn't good enough.
Now, just what SHOULD He do for people who sin?
If you were God, how would you deal with it that's better?
God is not punishing people endlessly.
They are going where He is not. It's what they want.
Death and hell will be destroyed eventually, thrown into the lake of fire. That is God's intent for those things and the fallen angels who get sent there.
However, as I said before, they were NEVER intended for man. God created man for fellowship and relationship with Himself.
Man CHOSE to break that relationship.
God, out of love for us, took on human flesh, lived the life we couldn't live, died the death we couldn't die for ourselves, took the punishment for our sins so that we don't have to, calls us to Himself, commands all men everywhere to repent, shows us our need for Him, offers the way out as a gift, freely and unconditionally given, and warns us of the consequences for not accepting the gift.
He's done everything short of forcing it down our throats. What more do you want?
If that's not good enough for you, then NOTHING God is going to do is good enough for you.
And you know what? Heaven isn't going to be anywhere that someone in rebellion to God will want to be. It's not going to be heaven for them. Matter of fact, a sinful creature being unprotected in the presence of a holy God would probably feel an awful lot like hell.
“Your idea is that infinitely loving God precludes eternal justice...”
No, my idea is that eternal justice precludes the notion that poor little ol’ me (and billions of others kinda like me) deserves never ending excruciating pain.
“Your idea is that infinitely loving God precludes eternal justice...”
No, my idea is that eternal justice precludes the notion that poor little ol’ me (and billions of others kinda like me) deserves never ending excruciating pain.
Your argument ad nauseum is getting old. Address the points that these fine people made instead of repeating the same old tired argument over and over and over and over.
You are making commentary on something you have no idea (your claim, no?) is authentic or not? Or are you conceding the scriptures are true but you reject the message?
My point is how can you argue against authenticity based on a conceived concept that such scriptures tell us God is "unfair." Your reasoning seems to be "since I think God is unfair in His judgments, therefore the message and messengers must be false or in error."
One might say we would be using a "crutch" of thinking the scriptures may be in error or false in order to argue there is no such judgment (as mentioned in scriptures).
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