Eric Scott - What could he have done differently?

[mrjesse]

What could Erik Scott have done differently, considering the circumstances?

I don't watch TV so maybe I'm way out of touch, but as far as I can tell, Scott pretty much did the very best he could have. He informed them that he had a gun (Police always like to know if someone's got a gun, and many cc folks inform police of that as a polite thing to do - police don't like surprises)

It seems that Police told him to drop the gun - but since Scott wasn't HOLDing the gun, how can he drop it? He first has to reach for it, and pull it out -- but with his training, Scott knows that they are gonna be real edgy about a man taking hold of a gun, so it seems Scott does the very best thing possible - removes the whole holster so he can drop the gun without unholstering it.

I really don't see what else Scott could have done. If he just stood there with his hands up, they'd shoot him for disobeying orders. If he reaches for his gun to obey orders, they shoot him for reaching for his gun.

I know they say that Scott was high on all sorts of pain killers - but I know there's too much at stake to know whether that's true - there's a high likelihood that Scott was not high. With millions of dollars and police officer jailtime in the balance, you think I'm going to believe that there was put no pressure on the coroner to "find" the desired evidence?

But regardless of whatever state of mind Scott was in, just imagine a perfectly sane and legal concealed carry person in the store, with a holstered gun, walking out of the store with his finance, with no clue that he's about to walk into a firing squad that's waiting for him.

What would any of us do when suddenly looking down the barrels of three angry policeman while being commanded to drop a gun that was holstered? There's only two options - do nothing and get shot, or reach for it to drop it and get shot.

One thing doesn't make sense is it seems the policeman pointed his gun at Scott's chest and said "Turn around" and Scott did turn around, and that's when Officer Mosher saw Scott's gun. But then Mosher says that he "saw the gun come up" -- so it sounds like Scott wasn't even facing the police officer. No wonder the police couldn't tell that the gun was in a holster -- they probably couldn't actually see the gun.

~MrJesse

Some info derived from http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/sep/23/officer-deadly-shooting-says-man-pointed-gun-didnt/

[mrjesse]

I've been wondering for a while if there's a general belief that the life of an innocent policeman is intrinsically worth more then the life of an innocent civilian.

Has anyone else noticed this?

I mean, come on. 3 policemen, waiting in ambush with guns drawn. They should be able to protect the crowd against one armed bad guy. But no, it was THEMSELVES they were protecting -- which is fine -- but at least they could have waited for SOME form of aggression from Scott before dropping him dead. And at least they could have given him at least ONE option to not get shot.

Now I agree that anyone who carries concealed should make absolutely that it's 100% concealed 100% of the time when in public, just because there are stupid people out there. But whatever Scott did do, it wasn't worthy of the death penalty.

I think Mosher's problem was that he wanted to reduce his perceived chance of being shot from 5% to 0% even if he had to kill someone to do it. And that, my friend, stems from believing that the life of a policeman is intrinsically more valuable then the life of an ordinary human being.

[The_Media_never_lie]

I really don't see what else Scott could have done. If he just stood there with his hands up, they'd shoot him for disobeying orders.

Police shoot people for disobeying orders?

[USNBandit]

Bad policing if those were the commands he was issued. My guess is one cop goes into brain lock and starts spitting out bad commands, and another cop starts shooting. Once the shooting starts they go firing squad on the guy.

In the same position if they said drop it, I would drop whatever was in my hands put my hands over my head and not move. Don't say anything and listen. If they are screaming conflicting commands, keep your hands over your head, drop to your knees and prone yourself out. Face down, arms straight out, toes out, feet spread. The advantage of this is that you don't get your hand close to your gun, and you are going into a compliant position even a screaming cop will recognize as a good thing for him. Expect hard physical contact like a knee on your neck when they come in to cuff you.

I'm sure somebody will call me a boot licker, but I would prefer to get cuffed than shot. If you carried concealed you need to be prepared for contact with amped up police. I know that isn't right or fair, but cuffs are better than getting shot. Follow signs restricting carriage of guns (like the ones posted at the front of every Costco). You can't get arrested for not following those signs in Nevada, but you will at a minimum be asked to leave under threat of trespass. The law doesn't normally allow that in Nevada, but remember Costco is a "club" so the law doesn't protect you there.

[mrjesse]

Police shoot people for disobeying orders?

If the order is to drop a gun, and the perp has a gun, police just might shoot him. What else would they do? Tackle a man known to have a gun? Or give the perp more time to think of his next move?

~Jesse

[goat granny]

My father was a detroit cop, when I hit my teens he told me to never argue with the man that has the gun....goood advise...

[mrjesse]

In the same position if they said drop it, I would drop whatever was in my hands put my hands over my head and not move. Don't say anything and listen.

Sounds good, if you had time. It seems, according to the 911 tape, Scott had less then 2 seconds between the first command and being shot. It's hard to say just how a policeman will respond to disobedience however well intended -- remember, he only has fractions of a second to think as well.

Also, the human brain has built in delays for everything - and much longer delays for things that take thinking. Have someone hold out a rubber eraser and drop it, and hold your hand around but not under the falling path and try to grab it when you see it fall. If your hand is right under theirs, you won't be able to grab it. It will fall right through your hand before you can get the signal through your brain to close the hand! (Try it. It's a great party trick.)

Follow signs restricting carriage of guns (like the ones posted at the front of every Costco).

I've never seen any no-guns sign on any Washington Coscto, so I guess not all costco stores have them. But I agree, it is a good idea to respect private property owners desires when on their property (which is what going shopping is.)

~Jesse

[Moonman62]

You’re really dragging one up from the past. I think if it was up to Scott, he would have stayed home which is what he should have done. It was his girlfriend who dragged him out in public that day. She was also the one who was getting him the illegal amounts of pain killers and Xanax. Scott had also been in an unusually high number of traffic accidents in the months before the shooting. Probably from being impaired.

[Moonman62]

I mean, come on. 3 policemen, waiting in ambush with guns drawn.

Ambush? Why would you say that? I'm sure it's not because you are biased against the police.

[Moonman62]

I think Mosher's problem was that he wanted to reduce his perceived chance of being shot from 5% to 0% even if he had to kill someone to do it.

I don't recall Mosher calculating his probability of being shot. Was that in his testimony?

[mrjesse]

You’re really dragging one up from the past

Oh, is the lawsuit all finished? Or is it still going on?

~Jesse

[expat1000]

“Scott does the very best thing possible - removes the whole holster so he can drop the gun without unholstering it.”

Do you really think that was the best thing possible? Moving your hands to within inches of the gun?

What he should have done is exactly what someone else said: Put up his hands. Up over his head, or clasped behind his head. It’s all about the hands.

No sudden moves. No unnecessary moves. No moves that might be misinterpreted.

Attempting to drop the holster sounds very much like what someone on drugs would do.

[Lancey Howard]

If he just stood there with his hands up, they'd shoot him for disobeying orders.

You're not serious.

[mrjesse]

Ambush? Why would you say that?

Well, 3 guys waiting outside with drawn guns for someone to walk through the door, right or wrong, sounds like an ambush. What's the difference between that and an ambush?

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that there was enough LE to give the perp the benefit of the doubt.

I'm sure it's not because you are biased against the police.

I'm not biased against Police in general. I'm concerned with abuse of power in all forms of government. It's just that Law Enforcement is crucial because their the ones who carry the guns, and end up shooting people.

~Jesse

[mrjesse]

Do you really think that was the best thing possible? Moving your hands to within inches of the gun?

They told him to drop the gun. How's he going to drop the gun without moving his hands to within inches of the gun?

Policemen get very edge when you don't do exactly what they tell you when they tell you.

~Jesse

[mrjesse]

Said MrJesse: If he just stood there with his hands up, they'd shoot him for disobeying orders.

Said Lancey Howard: You're not serious.

So you would have just stood there with your hands up, ignoring repeated orders of "DROP THE GUN DROP THE GUN?"

I wonder if that's really what you'd do. The problem is, and they know it, as long as the gun is still in your holster, you could grab it and fire it before anyone could respond.

~Jesse

[21twelve]

“Policemen get very edge when you don’t do exactly what they tell you when they tell you.”

I believe they were pretty amped from the very beginning. IIRC the 911 call escalated things quite a bit. The police radio had dispatch setting up a “command center” across the street. The store was being evacuated.

Those cops went in there expecting a crazed gunman. Instead they find some poor sod coming out of the store along with everyone else. And he has to be pointed out to them by an employee.

But - instead of seeing just some guy, they see a crazed gunman. Heck - even see him pointing his gun at them. Except witnesses said the gun was in a zippered/padded case.

I believe there were simultaneous conflicting commands as well. (I don’t recall exactly, but along the lines of “Drop the gun” “Get on the ground” “Get your hands up”). Pretty tough situation for Mr. Scott.

Too bad all of the security tapes of the entire situation (inside the store before, outside, etc.) were accidently damaged - how inconveinent.

[mrjesse]

To all of your Law Enforcement and LE Families, please accept my apologies for offending you. That was not my goal.

But you have to realize that policeman are people too. Criminals are equal opportunity employees. They come in all shades, all degrees, and there are some in every industry.

I very much am grateful for police. They are very important in a civilized society. Unfortunately, like everyone else, they do things they shouldn’t — and due to their role as armed officers, someone usually gets killed when they mess up.

It is true that the hiring procedure for policemen is much more strict then McDonalds. But then, power tends to corrupt so some of that is offset.

It doesn’t take lot of searching the news to verify that this is a real problem, a problem which you must realize needs addressing.

It is easy to search the news and compile a long list of non-law enforcement people committing crimes. It’s just as easy to do so for police. That doesn’t mean that all policeman are bad, as a matter of fact, most are good. But that doesn’t mean that the problem doesn’t exist.

If you are (or are related to) a good law enforcement officer who obeys the same laws himself as he enforces on others and values the lives of others as his own, then THANK YOU. You are a vital asset to our society.

Also to all you law enforcement personnel, what is your take on the question of whether the life of a policeman is intrinsically worth more then that of a normal person? Whether such a belief is good or not, have you noticed that belief to seem common? Do you think it’s good or bad?

Good night. I must get rest.

~Jesse

[The_Media_never_lie]

“Policemen get very edge when you don’t do exactly what they tell you when they tell you.”

You should always do just what the police say, or they just might haul off and shoot you.

[The_Media_never_lie]

“Policemen get very edge when you don’t do exactly what they tell you when they tell you.”

You should always do just what the police say, or they just might haul off and shoot you.

[The_Media_never_lie]

“Policemen get very edge when you don’t do exactly what they tell you when they tell you.”

You should always do just what the police say, or they just might haul off and shoot you.