Posted on 08/16/2011 6:00:33 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
The legend of Davy Crockett, the buckskin-clad 'King of the Wild Frontier,' has been cast into doubt by new claims that his fabled last stand at the Alamo may have only lasted 20 minutes.
For 175 years, the Battle of the Alamo has been one of America's most cherished historical events. Celebrated in song, story and cinema, the story of heroism against all the odds helped define the young nation's pursuit of liberty.
But, according to a new book, the brave last stand depicted by Hollywood stars like John Wayne was a myth. In reality, author Phillip Thomas Tucker claimed many of the Americans who died at the Alamo were cut down as they tried to escape from the besieged garrison after a surprise pre-dawn attack.
The 'last stand' at the Alamo on March 6, 1836 came after a small band of Americans held out for 13 days against the army of Mexican dictator General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna.
The leaders of the group included Crockett, already famous as a frontiersman, storyteller and crack shot, and James Bowie, known for his distinctive knife.
It has long been part of the Alamo legend that Crockett died fighting.
The legend was firmly established by the 1955 Disney TV show in which the hero was seen swinging an empty rifle as the hordes of Mexican soldiers closed in for the kill. But in his book, 'Exodus from the Alamo,' Dr Tucker painted a much less glamorous ending.
Using recently discovered Mexican accounts of the battle, the historian wrote that the defenders of the Alamo in the war for Texan independence did not die defending their garrison under brilliant sunlight.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
“Obama really graduating from a university.”
Nobody would believe that!
Most battles, the tide turns very quickly. This was a massacre.
That a man from Tennessee volunteered to defend the small republic of Texas from Mexico, and died in the process, that is what makes him a hero.
Whether he died in 20 minutes or 2 hours, is irrelevant. That he put his life on the line for nothing more than freedom? That will never be extinguished.
I don’t know if you’ve ever played war games, but it’s really a miracle that San Jacinto resulted in a Texan victory.
I find that despite my best efforts, I cannot replicate what Sam Houston succeeded. I have managed to survive a Mexican attack, but it’s incredibly difficult.
Hell he died for Texas...and he was from here....not far from me down around Lawrenceburg
aint that good enuff?
damn well ought to be
probably brought to ya by the same jackasses who claim my ancestors were nazis and shoulda been strung up man woman and child for slavery
when the Mexicans take Texas this time...they are gonna purge all the good historical stuff
you guys better load up
See, there's a positive in every outcome.
there's a positive in every outcome. - [emphasis MINE]So you're O.K. with guarding the walls of the citadel of this reupblic AND DYING in its defence?
The POSITIVE in the outcome is that should YOU fail in your mission...
I don’t know if you’ve ever played war games, but it’s really a miracle that San Jacinto resulted in a Texan victory.
I agree with you. In my experience though the war games both Board and real are very good but have some severe flaws in the initial designs of the games. And that is the spirit and morale of the units involved.
We try very hard to simulate those characteristics but never quite succeed. And of course mistakes and the ability to capitalize on them is difficult to put into the War Games.
Still it was a miracle at San Jacinto and Sam Houston made the best of it.
The only one to die in bed was James Bowie. And he had been bedridden for days. He was so ill, he may even have been dead by the time the Mexicans got to him.
Most of the Alamo defenders were put on pyres and burned. There were approximately three pyres used for this purpose.
The Pena document is not new as this suggests and has been debated for years. It takes nothing away from the heroic stance made at the Alamo, but frankly puts Santa Ana in a very bad light for slaughtering the remaining defenders (Crockett included). And it takes nothing away from the memory of David Crockett. Whether he died swinging Betsy, or slaughtered, he’s still an American hero. Yet, there’s always the chance the one they thought was Crockett was someone else.
Thanks.
Defeat is a mild word for what Santa Anna suffered. We (and I use the term advisedly; my ancestor was there) Texans killed around 630 Mexican soldiers and captured over 700, while losing only nine men.
According to historians, the battle lasted eighteen minutes (but we continued shooting the Mexican soldiers wallowing in the bayou for another hour; and if you have a problem with that you should read about Goliad).
Even if we held the Alamo for only twenty minutes (after thirteen days), that's longer than the eighteen minutes at San Jacinto.
Not Yours To Give
Col. David Crockett
US Representative from Tennessee
Originally published in "The Life of Colonel David Crockett,"
by Edward Sylvester Ellis.
One day in the House of Representatives a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support. The Speaker was just about to put the question when Crockett arose:
"Mr. Speaker--I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the sufferings of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this House, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living to lead us into an act of injustice to the balance of the living. I will not go into an argument to prove that Congress has not the power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. We have the right, as individuals, to give away as much of our own money as we please in charity; but as members of Congress we have no right so to appropriate a dollar of the public money. Some eloquent appeals have been made to us upon the ground that it is a debt due the deceased. Mr. Speaker, the deceased lived long after the close of the war; he was in office to the day of his death, and I have never heard that the government was in arrears to him.
"Every man in this House knows it is not a debt. We cannot, without the grossest corruption, appropriate this money as the payment of a debt. We have not the semblance of authority to appropriate it as charity. Mr. Speaker, I have said we have the right to give as much money of our own as we please. I am the poorest man on this floor. I cannot vote for this bill, but I will give one week's pay to the object, and if every member of Congress will do the same, it will amount to more than the bill asks."
He took his seat. Nobody replied. The bill was put upon its passage, and, instead of passing unanimously, as was generally supposed, and as, no doubt, it would, but for that speech, it received but few votes, and, of course, was lost.
Later, when asked by a friend why he had opposed the appropriation, Crockett gave this explanation:
"Several years ago I was one evening standing on the steps of the Capitol with some other members of Congress, when our attention was attracted by a great light over in Georgetown. It was evidently a large fire. We jumped into a hack and drove over as fast as we could. In spite of all that could be done, many houses were burned and many families made houseless, and, besides, some of them had lost all but the clothes they had on. The weather was very cold, and when I saw so many women and children suffering, I felt that something ought to be done for them. The next morning a bill was introduced appropriating $20,000 for their relief. We put aside all other business and rushed it through as soon as it could be done.
"The next summer, when it began to be time to think about election, I concluded I would take a scout around among the boys of my district. I had no opposition there, but, as the election was some time off, I did not know what might turn up. When riding one day in a part of my district in which I was more of a stranger than any other, I saw a man in a field plowing and coming toward the road. I gauged my gait so that we should meet as he came to the fence. As he came up, I spoke to the man. He replied politely, but, as I thought, rather coldly.
"I began: 'Well, friend, I am one of those unfortunate beings called
candidates, and---‘
"Yes I know you; you are Colonel Crockett. I have seen you once before, and voted for you the last time you were elected. I suppose you are out electioneering now, but you had better not waste your time or mine, I shall not vote for you again."
"This was a sockdolager...I begged him to tell me what was the matter." ’Well, Colonel, it is hardly worth-while to waste time or words upon it. I do not see how it can be mended, but you gave a vote last winter which shows that either you have not capacity to understand the Constitution, or that you are wanting in the honesty and firmness to be guided by it. In either case you are not the man to represent me. But I beg your pardon for expressing it in that way. I did not intend to avail myself of the privilege of the constituent to speak plainly to a candidate for the purpose of insulting or wounding you. I intend by it only to say that your understanding of the Constitution is very different from mine; and I will say to you what, but for my rudeness, I should not have said, that I believe you to be honest.
…But an understanding of the Constitution different from mine I cannot overlook, because the Constitution, to be worth anything, must be held sacred, and rigidly observed in all its provisions. The man who wields power and misinterprets it is the more dangerous the more honest he is.'
" 'I admit the truth of all you say, but there must be some mistake about it, for I do not remember that I gave any vote last winter upon any constitutional question.’ “ ‘No, Colonel, there’s no mistake. Though I live in the backwoods and seldom go from home, I take the papers from Washington and read very carefully all the proceedings of Congress. My papers say that last winter you voted for a bill to appropriate $20,000 to some sufferers by a fire in Georgetown. Is that true?’
" ‘Well, my friend; I may as well own up. You have got me there. But certainly nobody will complain that a great and rich country like ours should give the insignificant sum of $20,000 to relieve its suffering women and children, particularly with a full and overflowing Treasury, and I am sure, if you had been there, you would have done just as I did.'
" ‘It is not the amount, Colonel, that I complain of; it is the principle. In the first place, the government ought to have in the Treasury no more than enough for its legitimate purposes. But that has nothing with the question. The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be entrusted to man, particularly under our system of collecting revenue by a tariff, which reaches every man in the country, no matter how poor he may be, and the poorer he is the more he pays in proportion to his means. What is worse, it presses upon him without his knowledge where the weight centers, for there is not a man in the United States who can ever guess how much he pays to the government. So you see, that while you are contributing to relieve one, you are drawing it from thousands who are even worse off than he. If you had the right to give anything, the amount was simply a matter of discretion with you, and you had as much right to give $20,000,000 as $20,000. If you have the right to give to one, you have the right to give to all; and, as the Constitution neither defines charity nor stipulates the amount, you are at liberty to give to any and everything which you may believe, or profess to believe, is a charity, and to any amount you may think proper. You will very easily perceive what a wide door this would open for fraud and corruption and favoritism, on the one hand, and for robbing the people on the other. 'No, Colonel, Congress has no right to give charity. Individual members may give as much of their own money as they please, but they have no right to touch a dollar of the public money for that purpose. If twice as many houses had been burned in this county as in Georgetown, neither you nor any other member of Congress would have thought of appropriating a dollar for our relief. There are about two hundred and forty members of Congress. If they had shown their sympathy for the sufferers by contributing each one week's pay, it would have made over $13,000. There are plenty of wealthy men in and around Washington who could have given $20,000 without depriving themselves of even a luxury of life.' "The congressmen chose to keep their own money, which, if reports be true, some of them spend not very creditably; and the people about Washington, no doubt, applauded you for relieving them from the necessity of giving by giving what was not yours to give. The people have delegated to Congress, by the Constitution, the power to do certain things. To do these, it is authorized to collect and pay moneys, and for nothing else. Everything beyond this is usurpation, and a violation of the Constitution.'
" 'So you see, Colonel, you have violated the Constitution in what I consider a vital point. It is a precedent fraught with danger to the country, for when Congress once begins to stretch its power beyond the limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it, and no security for the people. I have no doubt you acted honestly, but that does not make it any better, except as far as you are personally concerned, and you see that I cannot vote for you.'
"I tell you I felt streaked. I saw if I should have opposition, and this man should go to talking, he would set others to talking, and in that district I was a gone fawn-skin. I could not answer him, and the fact is, I was so fully convinced that he was right, I did not want to. But I must satisfy him, and I said to him:
" ‘Well, my friend, you hit the nail upon the head when you said I had not sense enough to understand the Constitution. I intended to be guided by it, and thought I had studied it fully. I have heard many speeches in Congress about the powers of Congress, but what you have said here at your plow has got more hard, sound sense in it than all the fine speeches I ever heard. If I had ever taken the view of it that you have, I would have put my head into the fire before I would have given that vote; and if you will forgive me and vote for me again, if I ever vote for another unconstitutional law I wish I may be shot.'
"He laughingly replied; 'Yes, Colonel, you have sworn to that once before, but I will trust you again upon one condition. You say that you are convinced that your vote was wrong. Your acknowledgment of it will do more good than beating you for it. If, as you go around the district, you will tell people about this vote, and that you are satisfied it was wrong, I will not only vote for you, but will do what I can to keep down opposition, and, perhaps, I may exert some little influence in that way.'
" ‘If I don't’, said I, 'I wish I may be shot; and to convince you that I am in earnest in what I say I will come back this way in a week or ten days, and if you will get up a gathering of the people, I will make a speech to them. Get up a barbecue, and I will pay for it.'
" ‘No, Colonel, we are not rich people in this section, but we have plenty of provisions to contribute for a barbecue, and some to spare for those who have none. The push of crops will be over in a few days, and we can then afford a day for a barbecue. This is Thursday; I will see to getting it up on Saturday week. Come to my house on Friday, and we will go together, and I promise you a very respectable crowd to see and hear you.’
" 'Well, I will be here. But one thing more before I say good-bye. I must know your name.’
" 'My name is Bunce.'
" 'Not Horatio Bunce?'
" 'Yes.’
" 'Well, Mr. Bunce, I never saw you before, though you say you have seen me, but I know you very well. I am glad I have met you, and very proud that I may hope to have you for my friend.'
"It was one of the luckiest hits of my life that I met him. He mingled but little with the public, but was widely known for his remarkable intelligence and incorruptible integrity, and for a heart brimful and running over with kindness and benevolence, which showed themselves not only in words but in acts. He was the oracle of the whole country around him, and his fame had extended far beyond the circle of his immediate acquaintance. Though I had never met him, before, I had heard much of him, and but for this meeting it is very likely I should have had opposition, and had been beaten. One thing is very certain, no man could now stand up in that district under such a vote.
"At the appointed time I was at his house, having told our conversation to every crowd I had met, and to every man I stayed all night with, and I found that it gave the people an interest and a confidence in me stronger than I had ever seen manifested before.
"Though I was considerably fatigued when I reached his house, and, under ordinary circumstances, should have gone early to bed, I kept him up until midnight, talking about the principles and affairs of government, and got more real, true knowledge of them than I had got all my life before.
"I have known and seen much of him since, for I respect him - no, that is not the word - I reverence and love him more than any living man, and I go to see him two or three times every year; and I will tell you, sir, if every one who professes to be a Christian lived and acted and enjoyed it as he does, the religion of Christ would take the world by storm.
"But to return to my story. The next morning we went to the barbecue, and, to my surprise, found about a thousand men there. I met a good many whom I had not known before, and they and my friend introduced me around until I had got pretty well acquainted - at least, they all knew me.
"In due time notice was given that I would speak to them. They gathered up around a stand that had been erected. I opened my speech by saying:
" ‘Fellow-citizens - I present myself before you today feeling like a new man. My eyes have lately been opened to truths which ignorance or prejudice, or both, had heretofore hidden from my view. I feel that I can today offer you the ability to render you more valuable service than I have ever been able to render before. I am here today more for the purpose of acknowledging my error than to seek your votes. That I should make this acknowledgment is due to myself as well as to you. Whether you will vote for me is a matter for your consideration only.’"
"I went on to tell them about the fire and my vote for the appropriation and then told them why I was satisfied it was wrong. I closed by saying:
" ‘And now, fellow-citizens, it remains only for me to tell you that the most of the speech you have listened to with so much interest was simply a repetition of the arguments by which your neighbor, Mr. Bunce, convinced me of my error.
" ‘It is the best speech I ever made in my life, but he is entitled to the
credit for it. And now I hope he is satisfied with his convert and that he will get up here and tell you so.'
"He came upon the stand and said:
" ‘Fellow-citizens - It affords me great pleasure to comply with the request of Colonel Crockett. I have always considered him a thoroughly honest man, and I am satisfied that he will faithfully perform all that he has promised you today.'
"He went down, and there went up from that crowd such a shout for Davy Crockett as his name never called forth before.'
"I am not much given to tears, but I was taken with a choking then and felt some big drops rolling down my cheeks. And I tell you now that the remembrance of those few words spoken by such a man, and the honest, hearty shout they produced, is worth more to me than all the honors I have received and all the reputation I have ever made, or ever shall make, as a member of Congress.'
"Now, sir," concluded Crockett, "you know why I made that speech yesterday.
"There is one thing now to which I will call your attention. You remember that I proposed to give a week's pay. There are in that House many very wealthy men - men who think nothing of spending a week's pay, or a dozen of them, for a dinner or a wine party when they have something to accomplish by it. Some of those same men made beautiful speeches upon the great debt of gratitude which the country owed the deceased--a debt which could not be paid by money--and the insignificance and worthlessness of money, particularly so insignificant a sum as $10,000, when weighed against the honor of the nation. Yet not one of them responded to my proposition. Money with them is nothing but trash when it is to come out of the people. But it is the one great thing for which most of them are striving, and many of them sacrifice honor, integrity, and justice to obtain it."
Incidentally, Crockett was apparently quite an all around Conservative. (See Davy Crockett & The Constitution.)
I would, also, highly recommend the John Wayne version of the "Alamo"--perhaps Wayne's most inspiring performance.
William Flax
Which games?
“Don’t you blaspheme round here!”
Blues Brothers
“Dems fightin’ words, boy!”
WXGESR
Do you use the “Yellow Rose of Texas” as a MILDEC tactic like Sam did?
Let’s see.
flush with victory, Santa Anna’s army was no longer in a “combat mode” They were celebrating. Wine women and song. Hell Santa Anna his self was with a woman who became known as “The Yellow Rose of Texas”. VERY INTERESTING STORY THERE.
And you cannot replicate the victory?
Look at the manpower reserves of Mexico, and ask yourself why they would ever bother to sign peace with TX?
TX can raise an army of maybe 30k. Mexico at the time could raise a million, if pressed. Most Mexican commanders raise close to 100k to fight Texas because they want to overrun the state and win.
I’ve won before, but that requires a different strategy from San Jacinto. It means putting every man you can stuff into Cavalry and leading a direct assault on Mexico city by pounding through the Gulf coast, and then scaling the heights.
It can be done, but I’ve never won by fighting on TX soil with all the TX troops defending in San Jacinto. You just get overwhelmed and chipped away by Santa Anna.
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