Posted on 07/27/2011 8:11:45 PM PDT by Liberty1970
Much is made about the lack of proof when trying to place Andrea Rossi’s eCat on the reality spectrum. In a scientific sense, that is oh-so-true for those without the privilege of being on the inside of things. No scientist should take anecdotal evidence as word and, since we tend to look to them for guidance, it’s no surprise that their objections are sounded loud and clear. In their business, nothing else matters but absolute, bomb-proof facts (doubly so for something labelled as ‘junk science’).
In a recent post I suggested that a scientist’s conclusion should be that there is insufficient data for a conclusion but somehow the proclamations from some sound like accusations of fraud. Lost in this argument we can forget that, in the real world, scientists are used as one tool in the mix of evidence in our justice system. People are in prisons despite scientists swearing on their behalf, certain in their belief that one thing is true instead of another. In the real world, in the absence of data good enough to result in scientific consensus, we weigh the evidence and think for ourselves. Which begs the question: For the person in the street, what is that evidence?
Against:
-It’s too-good-too-be-true
-Does not conform to ‘known’ fusion rules
-Public demos have been demos – never proof
-Most outsiders with access have restrictions imposed
-Andrea Rossi has a past open to attack
-The money involved is big-big-big
-Two people given passive access were not impressed
-Most mainstream scientists do not believe that LENR is real
-Some supporters of LENR are wary of believing
-Contradicting statements among main players
-Mainstream media is curiously silent
For:
-LENR is almost certainly real
-Prof Focardi published promising Ni-H results long before working with Andrea Rossi
-Prof Piantelli (Focardi’s former Ni-H collaborator) has similar claims
-No-one with deep access argues against the eCat
-A number of respected scientists with privileged access publicly support Rossi
-A number of non-aligned prominent scientists give qualified support
-Rossi has numerous financial backers
-Defkalion, with 200 million Euros on the table, state that their engineers have unrestricted daily access and get gains no less than 19 in tests. This means that they are not victims
-Specific and short timescale to launch
-Large output and gain is simple to measure to an accuracy that matters commercially
-Andrea Rossi will lose everything if the eCat does not do as he promises
-Professor Stremmenos, Defkalion Board member and conduit to Greek PM, is beyond reproach and in it up to his neck
-AR’s former colleagues bought the rights for the Americas (Ampenergo) – a demonstration of credibility from those who know
-Scientists at the University of Bologna (and the institution itself) are happy to be associated with eCat
-Often a stick to beat him with, Andrea Rossi’s background is also indicative of a serial entrepreneur pushing at the front edge of what is possible
-Mainstream media is not covering a 200 million Euro fraud with links to Greek government and prominent scientists
In an effort to keep eCatNews.com objective, I will not believe until proof is provided. I suggest that readers thinking about investing time and/or money do the same. However, honesty goes both ways and I have to admit that the weight of circumstantial evidence ‘against’ is weak. Most points are easy to explain away, should you wish to do so. When balancing this against the circumstantial evidence ‘for’ it appears to me that we would be foolish to bet against it being real (even as caution holds us back from investing our life savings ‘for’).
Thankfully, most of us do not have to make that call as October is near. For those wanting to take a risk, look at the evidence using the above list as a guide and decide how the scales would tilt in a court of law.
Dila, if that was the case, why hasn’t he already gone to jail for fraud? Yeah, I know about the Petrodragon affair. That affair shows he was a serious inventor, albeit with a inadequate approach to hazardous waste handling. SFAIK his legal troubles there had nothing to do with fleecing anyone. I don’t see how you can get the conclusion that he was a scam artist from it. You keep seeing only what you want to see, in a very lopsided kind of way. :-(
Ok, guess it isn’t fleecing when the investors lost everything due to him declaring bankruptcy. Guess it isn’t a scan when he never accounted for the money........
Yes, he went to prison for Petrodragon.
Sucker born every minute, marks that want to be marks are the best.
As someone that deals with this sort of thing, this is laughable ..
Looks like someone just choose google search terms and through them in a pitch without knowing what they actually mean.
A lot like your own posts.
sfl
That is, you have reached a conclusion based largely on faith and prejudice and are not about to let further evidence get in the way.
B4Ranch just gave you a beautiful piece of evidence against your beliefs. Instead of re-evaluating your conclusions you bizarrely claim he "didn't try hard enough" to throw money at Rossi. It's a waste of time trying to reason with fanatics like yourself.
So I am the believer.....
Claims they don’t know how it works, yet, were real specific about how they built it. There is no way on God’s green Earth they built something so technically specific without knowing how it works. They simply did not say, “Hey, Vern, let’s put this here and that there together and see what happenes.”
Ponzi did too, another Italian with a shady past.
They don't have a complete underlying scientific theory for the LENR reaction involved. That's completely different from the technical specifications involved in building the working product. The fact that the demonstrations have all been done with out any hitches ("sorry for the delay folks... just give us another few minutes (head ducking back under equipment)...") strongly suggests to me that they have a good knowledge of the critical functional parameters.
We don't have a meaningful theory for what gravity "is" either, but that doesn't mean we can't reliably make use of it in our product designs. As an engineer, I could really care less if the academics can't figure out how it works.
When I was a freshmen aerospace engineering student I recall my prof declaring that, scientifically, bumblebees can't fly. His point was that having tidy working scientific hypotheses is secondary to engineering reality. So this point on the 'con' list means very, very little to me.
Of course they may have been fooled, so this is not proof. It is just one of the pieces of data being compiled pro and con.
When (if) this process pans out, we won’t see you around here anymore.
Another good reason for the E-cat to work.
With that in mind, I’m going to start a list of those I will want to ping for discussion in a few months.
ok, add me to it....lol
Can’t wait to see the coal plant construction cancellation notices in the paper.
You are #1 on the list :)
Just discovered that Rossi when to jail twice for energy scams.....trying make it a third time I guess...he must feel the third time is the charm:
The Army’s report states that Rossi had his prototypes tested at the University of New Hampshire, and they produced only 100 Watts of power each. However, before Rossi was able to produce and deliver any devices to the Army, an unexplained fire destroyed his Manchester, New Hampshire, facility. Rossi then attempted to manufacture the thermoelectric devices in Italy, but these modules produced only 1 Watt of power each, two to three orders of magnitude less than the expectations he gave to the Army.
In 1995, according to an article called “For the Second Time, Handcuffs for Andrea Rossi” in Corriere della Sera, Rossi went to prison after he was convicted of illegal gold trafficking. Rossi also explained this on his personal Web site.
So I am the believer.....
***Yes. Where cold fusioneers have been accused in engaging in pathological science, you are engaging in pathological pseudoskepticism.
Fascinating. There are a few regulars on these cold fusion threads that deserve to be on your list.
What are you going to call the list, the “I told you so” list?
The End Of Snide Remarks Against ECAT —> TEOSRAECAT list?
The End of Snide Remarks Against Cold Fusion
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2265914/posts
Friday, June 05, 2009 5:56:08 PM · by Kevmo · 95 replies · 1,770+ views
Free Republic, Gravitronics.net and Intrade ^ | 6/5/09 | kevmo, et al
lol The “I told you so” list is as good a name as any.
I just get aggravated at the kneejerk deniers and I popped off to dila813. I do have a few semicolon separated names saved in a text file. More to be added.
At least those of us that approach being kneejerk believers are hoping for an something of an energy revolution. And no, that’s not right, this seems way past the point of some kneejerk believers getting excited.
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