Posted on 06/03/2011 7:29:16 PM PDT by Winstons Julia
I was raised Lutheran and have attended many churches. I was born-again in 2005. I was shocked to have a Catholic tell me that *we* aren't saved by grace alone ... but that we need to recharge our salvation with works.
Now ... it's not that I'm not charitable and kind. We all know the studies about Christians and charitable giving.
But *I'M* NOT saved by Grace? Are you kidding?
But if you're Shirley MacLaine, you're born again and Again and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.../sarc>
Cheers!
The children of Fatima honored and venerated Mary, the Mother of Christ. They should have. They did the right thing.
None of the children of Fatima ever taught or believed that Mary was God or should be worshipped as God. You example helps prove my point. Thanks for the assist.
>>Well then should I assume that this is the very first time that WJ has ever read or been on the religion forum? <<
Maybe just not on a Catholic thread.
I generally avoid the Religion Forum myself.
*snicker*
What part of “Eternal Life” are you missing?
Eternal Life?
I was discussing the issue of those who try and make intercessions with Mary when in fact she is sleeping awaiting the return.
Yup, Eternal Life. Not dozing away, but Eternal Life. There’s no breaks in Eternal. Here’s an example.
Luke 23:39-43
[39] One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”
[40] But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? [41] We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
[42] Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
[43] Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
If you want to believe the thief is sleeping, you go for it.
“Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.””
Literal greek translation:
“To you I am saying today with me you will be in the paradise”
Clearly a translator punctuation error, what’s being described is the future, as Jesus was in the grave 3 days and nights before he was risen from the dead. The error also contradicts other clear scriptures on the subject.
Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
>>Clearly a translator punctuation error<<
Wow, and I thought Catholics were good at rationalizing!!!!
Look, this exact scripture quote was in our homily at Mass tonight. The Priest laid it out for you and The Holy Spirit brought it to me so you can understand, cause trust me, I would rather just pity and pray for you.
We are all part of the Body of Christ in heaven. If you’re not, you don’t make it there.
It’s not hard.
But if you want to believe that God, who is timeless, sedates you for a time, you go right on ahead and believe that.
Me, I’ll be waiting for you. Ever see Catholic Heaven on the Simpsons? It’s where the party people hang out.
Job 14:12:
“So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.”
So seriously, You think that God, who works outside of time, has everyone dose away while He sits alone in heaven. What would He be waiting for? There is no time, He is timeless. All events have happened.
Well I guess that’s what happens when you pick and choose your scripture. I’m so glad I have the compilers of the Bible around to help me. You poor people have only YOIOS.
I’ll see you one and raise you three.
Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; For God took him.
2 Kings 2:11
And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Hebrews 11:5
Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him.
“You believe that Lutheranism is the one true religion.”
No, I don’t. I believe Christianity is the one true religion.
I don’t begrudge anyone their faith. That’s WHY I was so taken aback by what happened.
And before anyone (too late) just gets angry and thinks I wish to Catholic-bash ... I don’t. But I have also seen people post pretty bad things about Luther here on Free Republic.
If I was someone who simply wanted to bash Catholicism ... then don’t you think you would have seen me doing so?
This thread was posted as a result of what I was told by a Catholic person. Thanks to those who have answered the question. Although some of the responses still have me a bit confused.
To judge by what I see on FR, not by a lot of 'em.
That's funny! I'm a born again Catholic Christian and he didn't tell me to worship Mary either!
[facepalm]
I didn't know there were extant images of Sister Attila Mary Sadistica.
That's a roger!
Maybe in the mid-seventies Time or Newsweek ran a story on what US Xtians believe.
A majority of surveyed Lutheran lay-folk did not believe in Justification by grace through faith but maintained that good works are necessary for salvation.
I did not draw a conclusion about Lutheranism from the representations of the lay-folk.
And yet is is the non/anti-Catholics who militantly maintain that just about everyone can understand saving truth and no teachers are necessary. Then they come and assess what we teach on the basis of what the students say, not what the teachers say.
We're not talking about failures in dogma alone. We're talking about sloppy thinking.
I come from many lines of Roman Catholics, was Baptized Catholic, educated in Catholic schools, married a Catholic.
My first child was Baptized Catholic, and my second has not. Around the years between having my two children, I became friends with non-Denominational Christians. I could quote from the Baltimore Chatechism, yet I knew nothing from the Bible except for the main “stories.” Add all the corruption and sexual depravity which was exposed around that time, and I basically left the church.
Now my children are being taught in a Christian school. I’ve spent years now questioning the Catholic faith.
Going back to the Baltimore Catechism, there are 2 types of grace - Sanctifying and Actual. And grace comes not only from God, but also through the receiving of sacraments and through prayer. One of the teachings in the Catechism states that if a person does things/daily works in Christ’s image, then that person’s actions “merit a heavenly reward.”
Because we are all sinners, the Catholic Church believes that going to Confession and following through with Penance are our recommended earthly resources for making up for our sins in this life. *Working* off the debt we accumulate as sinners is necessary so as to remain in good standing with Christ — unless we would rather work off our debt in purgatory.
This “works” thing is one of my main objections to the Catholic teaching.
That's a problem with "catechisms" in my view. They are the beginning, not the end. To use them properly, I think, means looking further, beyond their texts and formulaic answers. If one 'can quote from the Baltimore Chatechism' yet knows 'nothing from the Bible except for the main “stories,”' I don't see that as the Catholic Church's fault. I see that as negligence on the part of a lay person.
WHY didn't you read the Bible? Did you read Aquinas on Grace -- or Augustine or some introductory works? Did you LOOK for Catholic Bible Studies in your area?
I've been through THIS movie before as a Protestant pastor. We put announcements in the bulletin, in the newsletter, on the bulletin board, in mailings, and we have Bible study and five people show up, while the others complain there was never any interesting offering.
Catholics come to Mass late and leave during the closing hymn and complain that "nothing ever happens at that church -- no I didn't stay for the announcements or read the bulletin. They must think I have nothing to do but waste my time ...."
Your presentation of "working off" the penalty of sin suggests an immature theology, something suitable MAYBE for Junior High. No offense, but the way you presented it is just flat insufficient for a mature and intelligent crowd.
From A.T. Roberts:
Hath eternal life (echei zôên aiônion). Has now this spiritual life which is endless. See Joh 3:36. In verses Jos 5:15,15 Jesus speaks of spiritual life and spiritual death. In this passage (Joh 5:21-29) Jesus speaks now of physical life and death, now of spiritual, and one must notice carefully the quick transition. In Re 20:14 we have the phrase "the second death" with which language compare Re 20:4-6. But hath passed out of death into life (alla metabebêken ek tou thanatou eis tên zôên). Perfect active indicative of metabainô, to pass from one place or state to another. Out of spiritual death into spiritual life and so no judgement (krisis).To hear, in this place, evidently denotes not the outward act of hearing, but to receive in a proper manner; to suffer it to make its proper impression on the mind; to obey. The word hear is often used in this sense, Mat 11:15; Jno 8:47; Act 3:23. Many persons outwardly hear the gospel who neither understand nor obey it.
My word, i.e., my doctrine, my teaching'. All that Jesus taught about himself, as well as about the Father.
On him that sent me. On the Father, who, in the plan of redemption, is represented as sending his Son to save men. See Jno 3:17. Faith in God, who sent his Son, is here represented as being connected with everlasting life; but there can be no faith in him who sent his Son, without faith also in him who is sent. The belief of one of the true doctrines of religion is connected with, and will lead to, the belief of all.
Hath everlasting life. The state of man by nature is represented as death in sin, Eph 2:1. The dead regard not anything. They are unaffected by the cares, pleasures, amusements of the world. They hear neither the voice of merriment nor the tread of the living over their graves. So with sinners. They are unmoved with the things of religion. They hear not the voice of God; they see not his loveliness; they care not for his threatenings. The Christian lives with God, and feels and acts as if there was a God. The happiness of heaven is living unto God--being sensible of his presence, and glory, and power--and rejoicing in that. There shall be no more death there, Rev 21:4. This life, or this religion, whether on earth or in heaven, is the same--the same joys extended and expanded for ever. Hence, when a man is converted, it is said that he has everlasting life; not merely shall have, but is already in possession of that life or happiness which shall be everlasting. It is life begun, expanded, ripening for the skies. He has already entered on his inheritance--that inheritance which is everlasting.
Shall not come into condemnation. He was by nature under condemnation. See Jno 3:18. Here it is declared that he shall not return to that state, or he will not be again condemned. This promise is sure; it is made by the Son of God, and there is no one that can pluck them out of his hand, Jno 10:28. Comp. See Barnes for Rev 8:1.
{v} "passed from death" I Jno 3:14
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8,9)For by grace (têi gar chariti) explanatory reason as already declared in Eph 2:5 (which see) [By grace have ye been saved (chariti este sesôsmenoi) Instrumental case of chariti and perfect passive periphrastic indicative of sôzô. Parenthetical clause interjected in the sentence. All of grace because we were dead...] and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteôs), he adds in repeating what he said in Eph 2:5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours.
And that (kai touto), neuter, not feminine tautê, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows here that salvation does not have its source (ex humôn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dôron) and not the result of our work.
The faith we are to have is in Jesus Christ's attoning work upon the cross, as only He - God in hypostatic union with Man - is able to legally satisfy God's requirement of infinite punishement for transgression against His infinite holy righteousness. It akin to jumping from a burning high rise with the faith that the firemen have placed a suitable airbag to break your fall (you not being able to see the airbag prior to jumping) contrasted to the certain death that awaits if one doesn't jump. From whence comes one's salvation in that regard? Is it faith or the airbag? Obviously it is the airbag that saves you (as Christ died on the cross), but without your faith that an airbag is present (we can't see Christ hanging on the cross), one would surely die withou faith in the integrity of the firewman (or the phycical robustenss of the airbag). This is explicitely presented by Jesus to Nicodemus in Jno 3:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.He points to an account in the Old Testament whereby at God’s command Moses raised upon a pole a brazen serpent, whereupon any Jews in the wilderness who had been bitten by a deadly fiery serpent (sent as judgment by God because of the people’s rebelliousness), would be physically saved. This is an important prelude to the verses that come immediately thereafter, and is extremely important concerning the significance and meaning of Jno 3:16. The ordeal by the Jews in the wilderness itself was a punishment delivered by God as judgment (the fiery serpents also sent in judgment). Satan is referred to as being a serpent, and indeed a serpent was instrumental behind Adam and Eve’s fall whereby sin became manifest in the world.
The brass serpent lifted by Moses is seen as being a shadow of the cross, and of all the types of Calvary portrayed in the Old Testament, this is the clearest one. in face of the people’s extremely dire predicament (a great many people were being killed by the fiery serpents), their solution was to have Moses pray to God that the fiery serpents would be removed from them. However, that solution is essentially defunct (and as is characteristic of man in general was extremely shortsighted), in that it there would be no value whatsoever to those who had been bitten. What is illustrated here is the essential benefit of salvation: in that it is not intrinsically for the fit and healthy, but for the sick and needy, especially those under wrath and under the sentence of death. All a person bitten by a fiery serpent had to do was look at the brazen serpent and live.
God’s perfect solution to the Israelite’s problem was a transaction utilizing an icon representing the very thing causing death. And so a replica of a fiery serpent was fashioned onto a pole to be raised up for everybody to gaze upon. The replica of the serpent hoisted by Moses was utterly harmless. Scripture tells us that “sin entered the world, and death by sin” (Gen 2:17; 3;6; Rom 5:12), and “for he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin” (Isa 53:6,9,12; II Cor 5:21). Moreover, the serpent was made of brass; brass is typical of judgment. In the tabernacle, the altar of brass held the sacrifice for sin. In Revelation, when our Lord is prepared to return in judgment, He is described as having feet like fine brass. God told the Israelites that if they sinned, Heaven above would be like brass. Samson and Zede-kiah were both bound with brass, which held them as a fetter, fast for judgment. And yet, the efficacy of the whole transaction depended upon the hoisting of the serpent upon a pole. Nothing else would do.
Certainly the bitten could have walked passed such a replica. Certainly the replica could have been carried to those who were too ill to approach it. God’s plan in Numbers 21 suggests no such thing was possible. And Christ’s reference to Moses hoisting the brazen serpent affirms that: “…even so must the Son of man be lifted up.”
Jewish law provided for death by stoning, but Christ stoned to death could not save; He must be hanged on the cross. Why? Because of two curses in the Old Testament. One declares, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Gal 3:10), a quotation of Deu 27:26.
May that curse light on Christ? In righteousness–no! In grace–yes! The law could not righteously curse the perfectly obedient One. It could only bless and reward Him.
Yet there was one way in which the curse of the law might fix upon the Righteous One. That way was under another law which pronounced one mode of death accursed. "He that is hanged is accursed of God" (Deu 21:23), and "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" (Gal 3:13)
Take note of the exceedingly harsh terms imposed by God whereby Moses’ people would be rescued from the fiery serpents (a wrath from God that they brought upon themselves – and while still under a judgment):
Furthermore, there is no obligation in neither bestowing, nor receiving any gift. But wages are owed and are duely recieved as a matter of law; the wages of sin are death. No faith is necessary there.
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