Be sure and use both sides if you need to.
Posted on 05/16/2011 8:46:10 AM PDT by Lucky9teen
Creative history mormon style?
Seriously? Where is your source on such a statement? And all know about Mountain Massacre, so don’t use that one.
On the contrary, Godzilla. I have probably read Job harder and with more interest than you can possibly imagine. I have written treatises on it.
Look. All I am saying is that there are many religions that lay claim to Jerusalem. Some, most actually, I disagree with. But their motives are not evil, so help us save our beloved Holy City because G-d has a place for Righteous Gentiles, and if G-d haa place, who am I to argue? I fear for the Land of my Forefathers. We have asked the world for help and been kicked in the teeth for it. Please do not ask me to disparage those who would help out of love for G-d and us. That is not the way it should be.
I will agree with you to a point. But all the people you have mentioned have a very long track record of being solid in their beliefs, except for Savage (gave heavily to Moonbeams campaign) and Barton (He is a self taught/no formal education guy with some questionable claims).
Beck is all of a sudden an expert on great matters. He has no track record for a solid belief. He is all over the map if you listen to him over the last 10 years which I have. When he does involve himself in things, they are usually cannibalized ideas from others. 912 was a reaction to the Tea Party. He blatantly took the Boy Scout pledge and Motto for his 912 ideals. He railed against the tone of the country and pushed the 40 Days stuff and then went on a childish week long slam fest of the Birthers. He pushes himself as a Christian even though Mormonism isn’t really that. I have no problem with him or his religion, but why the charade. He promotes distrust of Obummer but is against releasing the OBL pics to give proof to the non believers because they are being silly. He doesn’t circulate with any real Conservatives. Always Libertarians of other fringe types. He used to do things with Hannity years ago, now he is BOR’s best friend? He always rails that the parties suck but doesn’t give a remedy. He is a Ron Paul supporter. He thinks the FDA is poisoning us and that Pasteurization is dangerous. This is not good stuff. Are there these types of things in the a fore mentioned groups background?
Those are just some things off the top of my head on things that make him far less credible than the rest of the people you list.
That is your choice. I stand for Israel, but will not be yoked with Beck. I’m not asking you to disparage Beck - but go in with your eyes wide open understanding that mormon theology he is basing his professed support is based upon.
But I also believe that there is little that humans can do, because G-d has already declared that He will protect Israel inspite of man’s efforts.
I'm talking about the John Huntsmans and Mitt Romney's of this world. Would you see any of them go to Israel and do something like this?
In general, Mormons are considered a cult in Israel, if they are considered at all. Every Beck rally has his brand of pseudo-religious populism instilled in it, the audience of locals are going to sit there and stare at him if he tries that in Jerusalem, or worse, actively chase him off the stage. He's begging for a violent reaction by ultra-Orthodox. He's begging for an attack by Palis, and Arab Israelis
That's a good point so I wonder who is going to be the intermediate between them. Beck is friends with a few Rabbis and they might be down there with him on that day.
He's off his gourd.
If he's there to promote Mormonism, you are correct. If he's soul purpose is to defend Israel, I wish him well.
I wasn't aware Mormons were a race unto themselves...
I'm sensing from Beck that this is his attempt at salvation. He keeps bringing up Dietrich Bonhoeffer and his stand against Nazism. I think Beck feels this is his time to act in order to be saved. He keeps saying God will hold those accountable that sit on the sidelines......
Could you provide a place & date? (And be more specific than Missouri, 1830s...or Nauvoo, IL, June 1844 when three prisoners wielding two pistols lost their lives in a shoot-out)
There's usually only five periods designated as including hostilities:
1833 Jackson Co. MO
1838 Davis & Carroll Co., MO
1844 Nauvoo, IL
1850 Utah "War"
Vague reference to latter 19th century ... usually 1880s but no specifics given other than anti-polygamy ... like Bean Counter did on post #14 found here:
Bean Counter comment on FR thread
The most vocal and strident opposition occurred during the 19th century, particularly during the Utah War of the 1850s, and in the second half of the century when the practice of polygamy in Utah was widely considered by the U.S. Republican Party as one of the “twin relics of barbarism” along with slavery.[1]...“As for the persecution complex,” writes Jeff Lindsay, “some of us may make too big a deal of our past and of current misunderstandings”. “There has been a difference in the way Mormons have been treated in the past. There has been genuine persecution, though we are grateful in these days that overt violence against us has generally ceased..." Many traditional Christians,[who?] however, further take exception to the so-called “persecution complex” within Mormonism in light of statistics that an estimated 170,000 traditional Christians worldwide are martyred for their faith each year,[20] a figure that far exceeds, even on a per-capita basis, reports of Mormon martyrdom by orders of magnitude.
So Bean Counter references Mormon claims to "persecution" in a context where 170,000 traditional Christians worldwide are martyred for their faith.
Yes, you said "Right here in America" Freddd...so can bolster your "genocide" contention with evidence?
Let's deal with the periods mentioned above:
Q1 Where & when did "genocide" pop out vs. Mormon during the polygamy years? (Dates, places, please)
Q2 What about the so-called "Utah War" in the 1850s?
The "Utah War" consisted of Utah Mormons raiding some calvary camps on their route to Utah Territory -- stealing some supplies. Nobody was injured, let alone died. While indeed no Mormons died in this war, the reality is that three U.S. Army soldiers were killed in one ambush (IRRC) and several more were injured. Also, during one winter, another 36 soldiers perished at Fort Bridger from the lack of supplies, most from malnutrition — mainly scurvy. (Another consequence of Mormons raiding supplies). [Sounds to me that the almost 40 victims...plus the 120 or more who were massacred by the Mormons @ Mtn Meadow Massacre were the true victims in the 1850s!]
That leaves Missouri, 1830s.
Q3 What about 1833?: In the middle of 1833 in Jackson County, Missouri...Mormons had armed men...ranges have varied from whom you listen to from tens to hundreds...up to 400 armed Mormons. Source: Kansas City Daily Journal, April 24, 1881
Result from Nov. 4, 1833 conflict: Two died (one a Mormon)
After that, the Mormons had 58 months of peace in Missouri.
Q4 What about 1838?: Jackson Co. people, along with those representing Bay Co., then got involved in backing some hot-heads in Davis & Carroll Counties in Sept. 1838...by October 1838 fighting & killing occurred on both sides, with property losses being less than what Lds later exaggerated.
I'm not justifying what some Missourians did in 1838; things happened on both sides:
(a): See, for example, the first entry at: Setting the record straight on the 'Hawn's' Mill Massacre In article, it explains how the Mormons love to cite Jacob Haun (real name was spelled Jacob Hawn with a "w"), who was the owner of the Hawn's Mill. But Jacob Hawn was never a Mormon...(In that article, a historian discusses why Jacob and Harriet Hawn were never Mormons. "I like many other historians mainly assumed they were Mormons." But among other proofs, Baugh explained that they arrived earlier to Caldwell County before the Mormons, and no family records report that they were Mormons. So the mill that was attacked wasn't even a Mormon mill, after all. [Rewrite the history books]
(b) From the above-linked article: With 17 Mormons killed and 14 Mormons injured, the historian explained that the massacre on October 30, 1838 was the "singular most tragic event in terms of loss of life and injury enacted by an anti-Mormon element against the Latter-day Saints in our entire church's history." Well, I would hope that historians would present history in a more balanced way. What's NOT mentioned in that article is that 12 days before this attack:
•On October 18, 1838, Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Lyman Wight, D. W. Patten at the head of 40 men made a descent on Gallatin, the county seat of Daviess, and they burned the only store and stole their goods. Previous to the 25th of October a great part of the Mormons residing in Caldwell County had returned home with their dividend of plunder.
* 6 days before this attack: • On October 25, 1838, the Battle of Crooked River: Mormon forces attacked (unknowingly?) the Missouri state militia under the command of Samuel Bogart. This incident became one of the principal points of conflicts in 1838 Missouri. The battle resulted in the death of three militia and the LDS leader, David Patten. One of the militia was taken prisoner by the Mormons. Source: http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/are-christians-persecuting-mormons
You can see how "lopsided" Mormon historians tend to present history!
Where is your source? (Oh, yea mormons are not a race, beyond that...) Where is your source?
When are you going to respond?
You must have skipped over the book of Job then, as well as other OT passages that shows that evil is also supernatural. [Godzilla]
On the contrary, Godzilla. I have probably read Job harder and with more interest than you can possibly imagine. I have written treatises on it. [MestaMachine]
Yeah, Mesta...why don't you tell us your "treatises" on Job 1:6-12 and 2:1-8 as well as Zechariah 3:1-2 and 1 Chronicles 21:1:
1.1 Chronicles 21:1 [ David Counts the Fighting Men ] Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. 1 Chronicles 21:1-3 (in Context) 1 Chronicles 21 (Whole Chapter)
2.Job 1:6
One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
Job 1:5-7 (in Context) Job 1 (Whole Chapter)
3.Job 1:7
The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Job 1:6-8 (in Context) Job 1 (Whole Chapter)
4.Job 1:8
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
Job 1:7-9 (in Context) Job 1 (Whole Chapter)
5.Job 1:9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied.
Job 1:8-10 (in Context) Job 1 (Whole Chapter)
6.Job 1:12
The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
Job 1:11-13 (in Context) Job 1 (Whole Chapter)
7.Job 2:1
On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.
Job 2:1-3 (in Context) Job 2 (Whole Chapter)
8.Job 2:2
And the LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Job 2:1-3 (in Context) Job 2 (Whole Chapter)
9.Job 2:3
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
Job 2:2-4 (in Context) Job 2 (Whole Chapter)
10.Job 2:4
“Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life.
Job 2:3-5 (in Context) Job 2 (Whole Chapter)
11.Job 2:6
The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”
Job 2:5-7 (in Context) Job 2 (Whole Chapter)
12.Job 2:7
So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.
Job 2:6-8 (in Context) Job 2 (Whole Chapter)
13.Zechariah 3:1
[ Clean Garments for the High Priest ] Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. Zechariah 3:1-3 (in Context) Zechariah 3 (Whole Chapter)
14.Zechariah 3:2
The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?” Zechariah 3:1-3 (in Context) Zechariah 3 (Whole Chapter)
?
Is this just you falling for Mormon "PR" pitches, or do you have facts to back up your claims?
Q1 What county on the face of this earth has the highest % of Mormons?
Answer: Utah County, home of Provo, where BYU is. In fact this 2003 article says that 88% of Utah county is LDS!
Q2 According to inyork.com, citing a July 2009 Salt Lake Tribune article [see Provo-Orem tops state in foreclosure-related filings], which Utah metro area had the highest # of foreclosures?
Answer: The Provo-Orem area -- Utah County -- which "coincidentally" has the HIGHEST % of Lds concentration in the entire state!)
And that same source says: The Provo-Orem area is ranked No. 31 in foreclosure-related filings among more than 200 areas nationwide, a...report shows.
So the area w/88% Mormon population was actually ranked #31 nationwide for regional areas as of mid-2009! The inyork.com / trib said: The Utah County community is the highest-ranked Utah metro area on the list, with 3,168 properties -- approximately 2.2 percent of all housing units-- receiving a filing in the first half of 2009. At the time, up 129 percent from the same time period last year.
By Feb. 2010, Utah wasn't "bouncing back" in foreclosures because of church members having social help "down to a science,"...instead Utah as a state was #5 in foreclosures!
Source: Foreclosure mystery: Why can't conservative Utahns afford their mortgage?
Let's face it...many people will starve before they lose their house! If the basics aren't being covered in Utah, all you're doing is spreading misnomers that read exactly the opposite of economic realities in the heart of Utah!
(You know, some posters when they can't address the subject at hand, simply resort to their "fave" default topic at hand!)
And what dd I say, dimwit? I SAID Shaitan is the adversary, sent to TEST man not enslave him...and here YOU are quoting scripture that proves me 100% right. That man would CHOOSE evil is his own failing. Man’s choice. ALWAYS. Obviously, as Job is interpreted, Job did NOT choose evil. If you choose evil, you enslave YOURSELF to it.
Anything else?
No. How many?
Were you talking about ME in your cheapshot post there, kiddo? What do you think I should do, sit here at my computer breathlessly awaiting your pronouncements that weren’t there before I went to do my daily chores so I can satisfy your need for attention and instant gratification? Think a lot of yourself, don’t ya?
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