Societal breakdown - FReeper thoughts, opinions

[djf]

We all have to admit there has been increasing talk of doom and gloom. Danger lurks around every corner.

America has, for the most part, enjoyed fairly tranquil at-home circumstances. Hopefully, that will continue.

But what if it doesn't? What types of breakdowns do FReepers think are possible/likely?

The power grid going offline? No more welfare checks causing disruptions? Food inflation/unavailability?

And what do you do under these circumstances?

Part of the reason I ask is that I have a pretty good food/fuel supply. But driving around this afternoon, I was amazed at all the subdivisions that have sprung up all around me. Even if fifty percent of these folks were prepared for hard times, that would leave many thousands of very, very desperate individuals.

Could society recover? Could law and order be maintained?

FReepers are, in general, some of the most thoughtful, insightful and creative people on the planet, so I thought this was a good discussion thread.

[who knows what evil?]

What about the military? What if they are told that if they DON’T fire on their fellow citizens; they won’t be paid? What would YOU do to feed your children? Fortunately; I won’t face that decision.

[wastoute]

I had the opportunity to speak to folks who lived in the burbs of Panama City when Noriega gave the “Dignity Brigades” 10,000 AKs and told them “go get it”. Folks put up check points and road blocks with through the night bonfires at intersections all manned with men that lived on the block. That is all it took. Word got back to the Dingbats that when they approached these roadblocks they got “lit up”. They went back to their barrios pretty quickly.

[Quix]

Well put.

Thx.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind reply.

INDEED.

[Quix]

How about if they are told

if they don’t fire on their own

they will be fired on themselves?

[mad_as_he$$]

I can give you an example. After the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake which hit downtown Santa Cruz fairly hard it took about 24 hours for things to start to fall apart. About the time the grocery stores got emptied. The libs were the first to incite violence. It was not as bad as NOLA but it could easily have gotten out of control had the food not started coming in.

[djf]

Good analysis.

As I said earlier, part of what prompted this was driving around and seeing all the new subdivisions around me.

Now I have a couple guns and bricks of .22, but I got to thinking that if all the people who lived within a half mile of me decided to invite themselves over, I’d be lucky if I could stop 1/4 of one percent.

And I see comments on FR often about how brass and lead are worth more than gold. Problem is, if it gets to the point that gold is worth nothing, then brass and lead are only a way to delay the inevitable.

On another thread, a FReeper had posted that if the SHTF, he would just grow his own food.
Now as a yute, I worked on a farm in upstate NY. Throwing bales of hay, disking, plowing, slopping the pigs. Lunch was always like a ten course meal, as much as you wanted. Hard tack sausage, fried chicken, potatoes and tomatoes and veggies of all sorts.

But the guy I worked for had like 400 acres. He had 25 or so hogs, probably 50 chickens, half a dozen decent milkers. Fruit trees planted all over.

So the idea that “I’ll just grow my own” is totally a fabrication. In these days of instant gratification, I don’t see a whole lot of people who have a clue how long it takes for even a radish to grow.

But, anyways, I was curious about peoples thoughts and ideas about what might happen and how to deal with it.

[reformedliberal]

It is going to be quite dicey, IMO.

Out here in the boonies, we live at least 1/4 mile apart. Many, many government aid recipients, elderly, frail people with medical needs and a lot of 1 or 2-person households, out here. All dependent on gasoline and electricity. Even with wood heat, many would be forced into 1-2 rooms that could be heated enough with the stove. One major fire getting out of control could take out the property where it began and spread beyond that if there are dry woods and no snow.

It might actually be better to be in a small village of a few hundred up to 2k-4k people, as far a coordination and security are concerned.

Food and medicines can be stockpiled, but, eventually, things run out. Stores of food and medicine must be rotated and replenished on a continual basis. After 3-6 months, the wildlife is pretty wary if everyone is hunting and coyotes and dogs will be eating them, as well. Livestock, especially beef that graze away from the homestead, will be fair game and also be quickly gone. That happens more often than anyone knows, even in good times.

Gardeners and farmers know that it only takes one bad season to make the next winter lean and hungry. The modern family farm runs on diesel and electricity. Generators run on diesel or propane. Chainsaws need fuel. There will be no EMTs or ambulances or volunteer fire departments without gasoline. The larger farm operations have hired help and how much they can be trusted in an emergency is an unknown. For that matter, how much your neighbor can be trusted is also an unknown.

Horrific weather can happen any time of year. There will be areas that will have to contend with tornadoes and heavy rain/wind or intense cold and snow while trying to stay fed. Drought is a killer of everything and sets the stage for wildfire.

Illusions are for losing, eventually. Some will survive and they will become hardened and suspicious and downright mean, eventually. Even if that doesn’t happen, we will all become very tired and likely malnourished and that is when accidents and disease occur.

Real breakdown is going to be a nightmare, no matter where you are. Plenty of folks went hungry or died from lack of medical attention during the Great Depression. In my area, a lot of those conditions persisted for many folks into the 50s and 60s. Modern sanitation, electricity and even medical care for all were rare here through the mid-1960s.

I hope it doesn’t happen and if it does, it is short-lived.

[Any Fate But Submission]

90% of the USA population will die within a year in a total grid down scenario. Think about it, almost no food will be produced without water or fuel and without transportation any food produced could not be distributed.

You must survive two events:
1. The one year die off: Anarchy, starvation, mass killing, disease, cannibalism, etc. There will be no where safe from the mobs, not even the remote farm or lake front cabin. The looters and gangs will eventually take everything they can find with survivors becoming refugees. All refugees will die. So: Become invisible with at least 3 years supply of food in an undetectable fully serviced fireproof basement or bomb type shelter. Total secrecy is a must.

2. Your survival location must provide farm land and grid down water for long term food production. You must have the know how (better be doing it now) and the stored non-hybrid seeds AND the know how to grow, process (can, dry, preserve). Three years stored food because there will be no food production in year 1 and probably crop failures in year two so maybe five years food supply would be better. You will also need books on how to do everything because there will be no help from anyone for maybe years.

For full analysis with references to experts in their fields, read “How Long Can You Tread Water” by Tom S. at
http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/07/how_long_can_you_tread_water_b.html

[NeoCaveman]

TARGET RICH ENVIRONMENT

BTTT

[Yet_Again]

Spetznaz,

Rod Serling once did a twilight zone episode on something similar. The Episode was titled “The Shelter”...it can be viewed in its entirety here:

http://www.cbs.com/classics/the_twilight_zone/video/?pid=TNoLJX6Td_02JaG54UUZ2q_u9sED7D18

[BenLurkin]

Ah...you’re just trying to cheer us up.

[Georgia Girl 2]

We don’t have enough troops in the States to control more than 2-3 large cities. They are all out of the country which depending on your outlook of the gubmint may not be such a bad thing.

Those that plan for the unexpected survive the unexpected.

[Michael Barnes]

Its the “nine meals” rule. Things fully get underway after nine meals (because that’s about all the un-prepared have on hand on average).

[cowboyway]

There was another thread last week about TEOTWAWKI and someone recommended the bood One Second After. It’s a really good analysis of the breakdown after the grid is gone.

[xjcsa]

The only problem we should worry about with regard to CO2 sequestration, besides it being a complete waste of money and energy, is that it might also pollute the water supply.

Pollute it? More like turning it into Perrier...

[mamelukesabre]

There will never be a long term total grid down situation nation wide. There will be safe zones. Competent people will clan up and form compounds for mutual defense. The government will pick out a few dozen important areas and secure those, then let the rest go to hell. The grid will be segmented and select areas will be cut loose from the grid and maintained before the entire grid is allowed to collapse permanently. But there won’t be a 90% die off. 50% at most(more like 25%) and if it does actually last a full year things will find an equilibrium, then begin to improve...in select areas.

[steve86]

Long before the toe-eating stage I will have the Benelli self-aimed just below and in back of the hypothalamus (of yours truly). Sharpshooter accuracy won’t be necessary in those circumstances. But although I have done all the prepping, and have the bug-out van and a decent short-term semi-rural location, I don’t think the Lord will let it go that far. Hope not, anyway.

[The Comedian]

Of general interest to the Nuclear Terror ping list.

I'm virtually certain that within the next 24 months, we're going to experience either a nuclear or solar EMP event that is going to turn off the lights for at least 1/3rd of the country for several months, at *least*.

If it is a solar event, the good news is that we'll have at least 2 days of warning before the lights go out, and some of the grid can be protected. If it is nuclear/terrorist EMP, there will be no warning, and everything with a power cord will fry into puddles of useless junk.

When (not if) that happens, every city and suburb in the effected area will have 72 hours of life left, maximum. After that point, the neighborhoods will start looking like Zombie Apocalypse zones: Dark, full of scavengers/looters, and dangerous as *hell* for anyone still in the area. It will be like going camping in a maximum security prison, after the prison guards have long since fled.

As things *improve* after several *months*, they will begin to look like Somalia, and then if we're very lucky, post-collapse Argentina.

We will wake up to find ourselves in 1850's America, but without the white people knowing how to farm, mend clothing, use hand tools, or fight.

If you live in a city, move. Now.

(thanks for the ping oprahstheantichrist!)

"Nuclear Terror" ping.

Ping list covering atomic/nuclear/thermonuclear terrifying events and discussions.

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Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.

[The Comedian]

[ In our nation alone, you’ll see around 25+ million people suddenly unable to procure their antidepressant meds. And hungry. ]

I saw that on TV last night, it was this show called “The Walking Dead”.

Something about Zombies.

People could learn a lot about how to survive in post-normal America by watching, heck, *memorizing* 2 TV shows: "Jericho" and "The Walking Dead".

The issues and psychology exhibited in these shows are brilliant preparation material.

Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.