Posted on 11/07/2010 5:13:27 AM PST by Erik Latranyi
Back in June 2008, PrimeSense was looking to sell the technology that would eventually be engineered into what we now know as Xbox Kinect. The first company in Silicon Valley that PrimeSense CEO, Inon Beracha tried to demonstrate the sensor that powers Kinect to was none other than Apple.
The technology had been developed by engineers in the Israeli military.
When asked about why he thought of Apple first, Beracha told Cult of Mac that "It was the most natural place for the technology." The negotiations didn't go so well.
Beracha figured the technology was so good that he would be able to sell it to anyone. In the end, it came down to "Apple is a pain in the ass," Beracha reportedly said with a smile on his face.
(Excerpt) Read more at techspot.com ...
Microsoft has tried it's best to kill it - after all there was absolutely no need for Direct3D given that OpenGL was already there. But Microsoft saw fit to foist an inferior API on 3D developers, and needlessly fragment the community.
Microsoft has done everything it can to make OpenGL a second class citizen on Windows. For instance, you couldn't use the 3D features of the Windows Vista interface if you were running an OpenGL program. I'm not sure if it was fixed in Windows 7, it's no longer an issue for me.
OpenGL has a strong position on Mac, Linux, Unix and mobile devices, so its future is no longer in doubt. No thanks to Microsoft.
Wow! Gamers may actually get some physical exercise.
This entire post is nonsense, I can tell you aren’t a programmer. Trust me, I’ve been programming on OpenGL since before you were sucking the Steve Jobs popsicle.
Saying there was “no need” for Direct3D and that Microsoft had to “foist” it on developers is nothing more than a lie. OpenGL and Direct3D were more-or-less developed at the same time in order to take advantage of different types of hardware coming out at the time.
If you’re actually a conservative, you should realize that competition (what Macunists call “fragmentation”) is good. OpenGL is no more supported on OSX or Linux than it is on Windows. The fact that Windows additionally has Direct3D for use is not a detriment to it, it’s a bonus.
“Wow! Gamers may actually get some physical exercise.”
You’ve never heard of Wii Fit, eh? Old news...
“This entire post is nonsense, I can tell you aren’t a programmer. Trust me, I’ve been programming on OpenGL since before you were sucking the Steve Jobs popsicle.”
Very classy, and also incorrect. ;-)
“Saying there was “no need” for Direct3D and that Microsoft had to “foist” it on developers is nothing more than a lie. OpenGL and Direct3D were more-or-less developed at the same time in order to take advantage of different types of hardware coming out at the time.”
That’s BS, of course. First of all OpenGL wasn’t developed from scratch, it was a cleanup of Silicon Graphic’s GL library that had been in use for years, in the real world.
Microsoft never would have supported OpenGL in the first place, but it wanted ports of some professional applications (CAD etc.) and those developers wouldn’t consider a Direct3D port.
Microsoft at the time claimed OpenGL wasn’t suitable for games, but unsurprisingly when id Software developed titles using OpenGL they ran well. I say unsurprisingly since high end real time flight simulators had been using GL/OpenGL for years with great results.
“If you’re actually a conservative, you should realize that competition (what Macunists call “fragmentation”) is good. OpenGL is no more supported on OSX or Linux than it is on Windows. The fact that Windows additionally has Direct3D for use is not a detriment to it, it’s a bonus.”
In general, competition is good. This is not really an example of competition though, it’s an example of monopolistic behavior trying to extinguish competition. Direct3D has limited the porting of games to other platforms, thus limiting their competitiveness with Windows.
The real competition has been at the level of the 3D hardware manufacturers - who by the way are the entities actually supporting OpenGL on Windows. Microsoft has little to do with it these days other than giving permission.
OpenGLSo Microsoft actually only provides OpenGL v1.1...pretty sad. But wait, there's more! Here are Microsoft's very own RECOMMENDATIONS as to which graphics API to use for future work:Windows Vista and Windows 7 provide the same support as Windows XP for OpenGL, which allows video card manufactures to provide an installable client driver (ICD) for OpenGL that provides hardware-accelerated support. Note that newer versions of such ICDs are required to fully support Windows Vista or Windows 7. If no ICD is installed, the system will fall back to the OpenGL v1.1 software layer in most cases.
RecommendationsYeah, that's really supporting OpenGL eh? Somehow I'm having trouble seeing it in the "Recommendations" section....Consider the following recommendations when selecting an API for your graphical application:
* Use Direct3D 9 if your application must support Windows XP or an earlier version of Windows.
* Use Direct3D 9 if you want to support Windows Vista or Windows 7 running with XPDM drivers. For Windows Vista or Windows 7 systems that lack Direct3D 10 or better video hardware, you can either choose to use the existing Windows XP Direct3D 9 code path or use the 10level9 feature levels through the Direct3D 10.1 or Direct3D 11 API.
* Use Direct3D 11 to take advantage of the next generation of video hardware on Windows Vista and Windows 7.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee417756%28VS.85%29.aspx
I think he is referring to IBM big iron. Climate controlled rooms, hand wound core memory, men in white coats monitoring the system.
Ah, the glory days.
“That’s BS, of course. First of all OpenGL wasn’t developed from scratch, it was a cleanup of Silicon Graphic’s GL library that had been in use for years, in the real world.”
Neither was Direct3D developed from scratch. It was started by a company that Microsoft bought in the early 90s, around the same time OpenGL was being developed and released.
“Microsoft never would have supported OpenGL in the first place, but it wanted ports of some professional applications (CAD etc.) and those developers wouldn’t consider a Direct3D port.”
It’s this kind of stuff that shows you aren’t really a programmer (or, at least, one that has worked with OpenGL). OpenGL actually has very little to do with the operating system itself - it’s the hardware that makes the difference. The graphics drivers have to support OpenGL, not the operating system. The OpenGL API is more or less OS independent, since OpenGL’s drawing is done directly by the GPU, not the CPU.
“In general, competition is good. This is not really an example of competition though, it’s an example of monopolistic behavior trying to extinguish competition. Direct3D has limited the porting of games to other platforms, thus limiting their competitiveness with Windows.”
Again, this kind of stuff that shows you aren’t a programmer. Programmers will always use the easiest tool to get the job done that has the most benefit. If OpenGL was so much better than Direct3D, especially in the early days, programmers would not have used Direct3D. Even today they have a choice between which API to use. How is that not competition?
“The real competition has been at the level of the 3D hardware manufacturers - who by the way are the entities actually supporting OpenGL on Windows. Microsoft has little to do with it these days other than giving permission.”
This is the whole point. Microsoft can have nothing to do with OpenGL and it doesn’t matter. Windows will always support OpenGL at the same level that OSX does - because processing is done at the hardware level, not the OS level. OpenGL gives programmers easy access to the hardware, bypassing the OS almost entirely.
Will you now admit that you were wrong earlier in implying that Windows does not support OpenGL? That’s like saying OSX doesn’t support PDF files.
“Here it is, straight from the horse’s...mouth:”
Again, this is like going to Apple and asking them which program they give you to open PDF files. Microsoft is a company that makes an Operating System, not a graphics card. They even say in your quote that the user has to go to the hardware manufacturer to get the appropriate driver for OpenGL. Tell me, can I open up a Mac and put a 20 year old graphics card in it, and expect it to run the latest version of OpenGL? Does that mean OSX doesn’t support OpenGL?
My FRiend, look up the Sony Move, then the Microsoft Kinect and get back to us.
Yeah but gamers don’t use the Wii.
That is true, it was a library developed by RenderMorphics, which was founded in 1992. At that time, GL had been in use for several years. There was no comparison in terms of maturity, performance or capability - GL/OpenGL were far superior...and portable.
"It’s this kind of stuff that shows you aren’t really a programmer (or, at least, one that has worked with OpenGL). OpenGL actually has very little to do with the operating system itself - it’s the hardware that makes the difference. The graphics drivers have to support OpenGL, not the operating system. The OpenGL API is more or less OS independent, since OpenGL’s drawing is done directly by the GPU, not the CPU."
You seem a little dense. Your response didn't address the issue. The software houses didn't want to port their OpenGL program to Direct3D, thus forcing Microsoft to grudgingly make it available. Microsoft could very easily have not allowed OpenGL on Windows at all.
"Again, this kind of stuff that shows you aren’t a programmer. Programmers will always use the easiest tool to get the job done that has the most benefit. If OpenGL was so much better than Direct3D, especially in the early days, programmers would not have used Direct3D. Even today they have a choice between which API to use. How is that not competition?"
Some programmers did and do use OpenGL. Remember id Software? Then there's Blizzard, which has used OpenGL in the most successful game of the last several years, World of Warcraft.
However, they're going against a Microsoft recommendation, which for many developers feels like suicide. And now that there's the Red Circle of Death, er, I mean the Xbox using DirectX also, so developers are torn between an easy port to Xbox, or an easy port to Mac and PS3.
Sad that they're forced into that kind of choice by such a wrongheaded decision years ago. We'd have lots more interesting 3D software in more places without Direct3D in the mix.
I already explained why Direct3D is anti-competitive, reread that post carefully. Perhaps you'll get it this time.
"This is the whole point. Microsoft can have nothing to do with OpenGL and it doesn’t matter. Windows will always support OpenGL at the same level that OSX does - because processing is done at the hardware level, not the OS level. OpenGL gives programmers easy access to the hardware, bypassing the OS almost entirely."
Microsoft could airily wave its hand and remove ICD support from a future version of Windows, if it wished. Given its "recommendations" on graphics APIs, many companies are doubtless wary of such an outcome.
The good thing is that Windows is now steadily losing market share, so Microsoft's abuses aren't as significant these days.
"Will you now admit that you were wrong earlier in implying that Windows does not support OpenGL? That’s like saying OSX doesn’t support PDF files."
It clearly doesn't support it to the degree Apple does - it's a second class citizen. I strongly suspect you still can't run OpenGL software with Windows desktop eye candy turned on, for instance. Microsoft's level of "support" has done a lot of damage to OpenGL. I hope that Windows continues to allow OpenGL ICD drivers indefinitely, but of course there are no guarantees.
"Again, this is like going to Apple and asking them which program they give you to open PDF files. Microsoft is a company that makes an Operating System, not a graphics card."
Right, so why would it make recommendations on which graphics API to use? Why would Microsoft care, after all?
You'd have to be really dense not to see Microsoft's strategy. In fact, most people I've talked to cite lack of games on alternative platforms as the reason they stick with Windows. To give Microsoft some credit, it saw the importance of game software far more clearly than did Apple and others in the early 90s.
"They even say in your quote that the user has to go to the hardware manufacturer to get the appropriate driver for OpenGL."
And why is that NOT the case with Direct3D I wonder...?
"Tell me, can I open up a Mac and put a 20 year old graphics card in it, and expect it to run the latest version of OpenGL? Does that mean OSX doesn’t support OpenGL?"
Wow...you are really out there. Try making sense next time.
Apple directly supports OpenGL in MacOS X. Apple recommends it for all 3D development. That is in clear contrast to Microsoft's strategy of recommending its inferior, platform-locked alternative for ALL development. Microsoft also forces the end user to get OpenGL drivers from third parties, rather than distributing them with the OS like Apple.
I've wasted enough of my Sunday on this conversation, and I've made my position crystal clear. I'll leave it to those who bother to read this thread ;-) to decide who's making sense and who's not.
(BTW, I most certainly have programmed using OpenGL.;)
>>>>This is not meant as an anti-Apple nor anti-Microsoft thread and it should not devolve into either.
Just saying this is going to make it happen.
It’s clear to me now that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of graphics hardware and drivers. To imply that Microsoft will not allow drivers for OpenGL is absurd to the point of stupidity. Saying Microsoft could have disallowed OpenGL from Windows shows that you simply don’t understand what a software library is.
You missed the point of what I was saying - Apple includes hardware drivers with their OS because they control what you put in your system (FYI Apple doesn’t write its own drivers either, the hardware manufacturer does). Microsoft doesn’t do this. Microsoft does not have the luxury of including advanced hardware drivers for graphics cards with its operating system - there are thousands of different pieces of hardware you can put in a Windows system. Thus it is left up to the hardware manufacturers themselves to write software for how their hardware is going to handle OpenGL calls, and distribute these drivers themselves. This doesn’t mean Windows supports OpenGL at a lower level than OSX does.
You can respond, or not respond. It doesn’t really matter. Like the average liberal you’re incapable of understanding your ignorance.
Thanks to Eric Latranyi for posting
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Ooooh! I can hear the report abuse buttons being furiously mashed... There is a cult here that has apparently coerced the mods into invoking hate crime rules for anyone laughing at their precious toys........
Were you two asleep when Jim Robinson laid down the law about Flame Wars and attacking fellow freepers? Apparently you were. Ad hominem attacks are not allowed... you are both attempting to start one. You certainly are personally attacking me and insulting me. Cut it out.
Most companies in the process of negotiating an acquisition require non-disclosure agreements, until both companies agree to disclose. It is standard business practice to avoid the run up (or devaluation) of the value of the either’s stock. The CEO of Kinectic is wrong to think it was not a normal practice. . . or to have gotten his nose out of joint at the requirement.
The only FUD here is in the eyes of the beholders who say that Apple is any different than other corporations who require it. There was NO advance publicity, IIRC, before Microsoft announced it’s intended acquisition of Kinectic. Just rumors.
Uh, not exactly, Exho. Apple uses, DisplayPDF, and they don't provide a program to open PDF files... it IS built into the OS. Adobe Acrobat reader is entirely superfluous on a Mac computer. Want to see a PDF file? Highlight the file, tap the space bar.
Biggest pot and kettle posting of the month.
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