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To: Echo4C
"Neither was Direct3D developed from scratch. It was started by a company that Microsoft bought in the early 90s, around the same time OpenGL was being developed and released."

That is true, it was a library developed by RenderMorphics, which was founded in 1992. At that time, GL had been in use for several years. There was no comparison in terms of maturity, performance or capability - GL/OpenGL were far superior...and portable.

"It’s this kind of stuff that shows you aren’t really a programmer (or, at least, one that has worked with OpenGL). OpenGL actually has very little to do with the operating system itself - it’s the hardware that makes the difference. The graphics drivers have to support OpenGL, not the operating system. The OpenGL API is more or less OS independent, since OpenGL’s drawing is done directly by the GPU, not the CPU."

You seem a little dense. Your response didn't address the issue. The software houses didn't want to port their OpenGL program to Direct3D, thus forcing Microsoft to grudgingly make it available. Microsoft could very easily have not allowed OpenGL on Windows at all.

"Again, this kind of stuff that shows you aren’t a programmer. Programmers will always use the easiest tool to get the job done that has the most benefit. If OpenGL was so much better than Direct3D, especially in the early days, programmers would not have used Direct3D. Even today they have a choice between which API to use. How is that not competition?"

Some programmers did and do use OpenGL. Remember id Software? Then there's Blizzard, which has used OpenGL in the most successful game of the last several years, World of Warcraft.

However, they're going against a Microsoft recommendation, which for many developers feels like suicide. And now that there's the Red Circle of Death, er, I mean the Xbox using DirectX also, so developers are torn between an easy port to Xbox, or an easy port to Mac and PS3.

Sad that they're forced into that kind of choice by such a wrongheaded decision years ago. We'd have lots more interesting 3D software in more places without Direct3D in the mix.

I already explained why Direct3D is anti-competitive, reread that post carefully. Perhaps you'll get it this time.

"This is the whole point. Microsoft can have nothing to do with OpenGL and it doesn’t matter. Windows will always support OpenGL at the same level that OSX does - because processing is done at the hardware level, not the OS level. OpenGL gives programmers easy access to the hardware, bypassing the OS almost entirely."

Microsoft could airily wave its hand and remove ICD support from a future version of Windows, if it wished. Given its "recommendations" on graphics APIs, many companies are doubtless wary of such an outcome.

The good thing is that Windows is now steadily losing market share, so Microsoft's abuses aren't as significant these days.

"Will you now admit that you were wrong earlier in implying that Windows does not support OpenGL? That’s like saying OSX doesn’t support PDF files."

It clearly doesn't support it to the degree Apple does - it's a second class citizen. I strongly suspect you still can't run OpenGL software with Windows desktop eye candy turned on, for instance. Microsoft's level of "support" has done a lot of damage to OpenGL. I hope that Windows continues to allow OpenGL ICD drivers indefinitely, but of course there are no guarantees.

"Again, this is like going to Apple and asking them which program they give you to open PDF files. Microsoft is a company that makes an Operating System, not a graphics card."

Right, so why would it make recommendations on which graphics API to use? Why would Microsoft care, after all?

You'd have to be really dense not to see Microsoft's strategy. In fact, most people I've talked to cite lack of games on alternative platforms as the reason they stick with Windows. To give Microsoft some credit, it saw the importance of game software far more clearly than did Apple and others in the early 90s.

"They even say in your quote that the user has to go to the hardware manufacturer to get the appropriate driver for OpenGL."

And why is that NOT the case with Direct3D I wonder...?

"Tell me, can I open up a Mac and put a 20 year old graphics card in it, and expect it to run the latest version of OpenGL? Does that mean OSX doesn’t support OpenGL?"

Wow...you are really out there. Try making sense next time.

Apple directly supports OpenGL in MacOS X. Apple recommends it for all 3D development. That is in clear contrast to Microsoft's strategy of recommending its inferior, platform-locked alternative for ALL development. Microsoft also forces the end user to get OpenGL drivers from third parties, rather than distributing them with the OS like Apple.

I've wasted enough of my Sunday on this conversation, and I've made my position crystal clear. I'll leave it to those who bother to read this thread ;-) to decide who's making sense and who's not.

(BTW, I most certainly have programmed using OpenGL.;)

31 posted on 11/07/2010 8:04:33 AM PST by PreciousLiberty
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To: PreciousLiberty

It’s clear to me now that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of graphics hardware and drivers. To imply that Microsoft will not allow drivers for OpenGL is absurd to the point of stupidity. Saying Microsoft could have disallowed OpenGL from Windows shows that you simply don’t understand what a software library is.

You missed the point of what I was saying - Apple includes hardware drivers with their OS because they control what you put in your system (FYI Apple doesn’t write its own drivers either, the hardware manufacturer does). Microsoft doesn’t do this. Microsoft does not have the luxury of including advanced hardware drivers for graphics cards with its operating system - there are thousands of different pieces of hardware you can put in a Windows system. Thus it is left up to the hardware manufacturers themselves to write software for how their hardware is going to handle OpenGL calls, and distribute these drivers themselves. This doesn’t mean Windows supports OpenGL at a lower level than OSX does.

You can respond, or not respond. It doesn’t really matter. Like the average liberal you’re incapable of understanding your ignorance.


34 posted on 11/07/2010 8:33:20 AM PST by Echo4C (We have it in our power to begin the world over again. --Thomas Paine)
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To: PreciousLiberty

So, does the winner of this fight get to keep the Playboy for the first two nights? Because I am enjoying watching it, and I will kick in to get you both new issues.


51 posted on 11/07/2010 1:42:47 PM PST by Vermont Lt (We are so screwed.)
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