Populist Ideas about banking and Money Policies

[wendy1946]

This one is a long story and it's hard to even find a good place to start, but it's critical that conservatives understand this stuff.

What I was looking for a year and a half or so ago was an answer to the question of the extent to which Hitler's pulling Germany out of the international banking system could be viewed as a cause of WW-II and any real answer to the question involves understanding that money and banking system better than I did at the time. Resources I found helpful included:

• The pamphlet called Modern Money Mechanics put out by the fed bank of Chicago, which can be downloaded
• Murray Rothbard's Case Against the Fed, also free at this juncture.
• The familiar Creature from Jeckyll Island.

And finally a true bombshell of a book called Web of Debt by Ellen Brown of Los Angelas.

The question of populism is roughly orthogonal to the question of liberalism vs conservatism; Eva Peron and Sarah Palin were/are both populists. My own best shot at placing Ellen Brown in such a picture would be that were you to make a 180-degree scale of populists with Eva Peron all the way to the left at zero degrees and Palin all the way to the right at 180, then Ellen Brown would be ten or twelve degrees from center towards the side of Eva Peron.

That's basically irrelevant as regards the validity of what she has to say about money. The thing which has cemented Brown's place as Maximal Money Guru to my thinking is the fact that she has been talking about deflation for over a year while the self-proclaimed money gurus of WMAL starting with Kudlow have been saying that we were experiencing a very low rate of INflation, around one percent. That is, prior to the recent fed activity which clearly indicated who was right on that one.

Ellen Brown's book answered a number of questions:

• Why was the question of the nature of money and who has the authority to create it the most major political issue all during the 1700s and 1800s?
• How in the world did the United States function without an income tax prior to 16'th amendment in 1913?
• What was the real cause of the American revolution (I mean, who the hell's gonna fight a war over tea?)
• How did Germany go from a total basket case in 32 to the world's strongest economy by 37 or 38? That is, DESPITE being totally ostracized and blackballed and having to conduct all foreign trade on a pure barter basis??
• Was Nazi German money policy an actual cause of WW-II?
• What are the actual causes of inflation and deflation, and business cycles?
• Does money really need to be based on any sort of a metal like gold?

Bankers want us to believe that governments printing money will always cause inflation and they expend a great deal of effort and energy in fostering that belief. Nonetheless it doesn't take much of a thought experiment to dispel the notion.

Consider for example the case of two shipwreck survivors on an island. They have five dollar bills between them left over from their previous life, and there are five clams on the island. A Dollar is obviously worth one clam. Nonetheless they also have a machete and some ink: the one guy hacks a coconut tree up and makes a crude printing press, produces five more dollar bills, and pays them to the second guy to dig up fifteen more clams.

That's right. There are now twenty clams on the island and ten dollar bills; the two of them have achieved a two for one increase in the value of money by doing the exact thing which is supposed to always DECREASE the value of money i.e. printing it. Moreover, they were doing the exact same thing which Hitler and the German Nazis were doing, which is the one thing they ever did right. The only two things which are meaningful in such a picture are trust, and productivity.

For that matter, Ben Franklin and the colonists of his time were doing the same thing. They had developed a super economy and then George II forbade the use of such script money and crashed the entire colonial world into depression, resulting in the American revolution.

---

There are two or three gigantic problems with our present system of money generation which is based on income taxes and federal debt.

• We are paying interest on money which banks produce from thin air while it should be obvious enough that governments could produce money from thin air themselves without citizens owing interest.
• Since money is loaned into the system, there is never enough available to repay the loans including interest. The money to pay interest only becomes available from MORE loans, in effect doubling the M3 money supply every 14 or 15 years. THAT of course is inflationary.
• There is the continuing problem of fractional reserve banking, which is the most major cause of inflation in the world.
• There are other gigantic problems in our banking and money system including the problem of derivatives and what to do about them.

There is no saving our present money and banking system in its present form. The country is basically bankrupt now and the only thing staving off legal bankruptcy is holding interest rates at a level so low that it snaffs the entire economy. Middle class people at present have no way to invest money. All they can do with it is spend it, save it, or do things which resemble gambling with it.

The solutions which Ellen Brown proposes would in fact work, but there are dangers involved. The Adolf Hitler story did not have a happy ending and populists like Brown are now proposing that this power to create money be placed at the state level. But the biggest danger is that demoKKKrats might somehow or other get on the right side of this stuff before we do. THAT would be catastrophic. There would be no other issue or group of issues which conservatives or republicans could be right on which would matter; the impact of this money issue on people's lives is potentially that large.

The only rat who shows any sign of grasping this stuff at present is Dennis Kucinich from Cincinnati, who most dems view as as flake. That's the good news for the time being at least.

[wendy1946]

fyi

[seowulf]

There are now twenty clams on the island and ten dollar bills; the two of them have achieved a two for one increase in the value of money by doing the exact thing which is supposed to always DECREASE the value of money i.e. printing it.

Works just fine until you run out of clams (which is just about where we are), then the guy with all of those dollars finds out they won't get him anything he thought he was going to be able to buy later.

At that point he trades them for whatever is he can get; two dollars for a clam...sure; three dollars for a clam...OK.

[semantic]

Sounds like her book is a popularized version of the academic studies presented by AMI:

American Monetary Institute

And yes, as your political philosophy leans towards personal liberty, you will find yourself agreeing with leftists who embrace the same ideals. That's why you might be surprised to find yourself in agreement with Kucinich, Michael Hudson and others on various financial concepts.

The bottom line is that we are moving, once again, towards a system whereby Congress, via Treasury oversight, will once again take over control of (non debt nor gold nor fixed asset) primary base money. The Fed is fighting for its life, but it has long outlived even what their originators could have dreamed.

[10Ring]

What was the real cause of the American revolution (I mean, who the hell's gonna fight a war over tea?)

Ellen Brown's book answered this elementary question? I hope you got a refund (or huge discount).

The only rat who shows any sign of grasping this stuff at present is Dennis Kucinich from Cincinnati, who most dems view as as flake.

Ellen Brown is in the same camp as Dennis Kookcinich...who is steps to the left of Eva Peron.

That's the good news for the time being at least.

Seeing the Kook as good news in any way is just plain crazy.

[10Ring]

Did you ever find “The Creature From Jekyll Island” helpful ping?

[Toddsterpatriot]

And finally a true bombshell of a book called Web of Debt by Ellen Brown of Los Angelas.

LOL!

Ellen Brown would be ten or twelve degrees from center towards the side of Eva Peron.

She is an idiot lefty, which, I guess, explains her attraction for idiot "righties".

the two of them have achieved a two for one increase in the value of money by doing the exact thing which is supposed to always DECREASE the value of money i.e. printing it.

The value won't decrease if output increases more than money supply.

We are paying interest on money which banks produce from thin air

I only pay interest on money that banks loan from previous deposits.

it should be obvious enough that governments could produce money from thin air themselves without citizens owing interest.

The Federal Reserve does produce money from thin air "without citizens owing interest"

Since money is loaned into the system, there is never enough available to repay the loans including interest.

I have enough to repay my loans, including interest.

The money to pay interest only becomes available from MORE loans,

I repay my loans with money from income, not loans.

The solutions which Ellen Brown proposes would in fact work

Ellen's solution involves giving every governor a state bank to direct loans toward cronies. How'd politically motivated lending work with Fannie and Freddie?

populists like Brown are now proposing that this power to create money be placed at the state level.

Yeah, she's a moron.

the biggest danger is that demoKKKrats might somehow or other get on the right side of this stuff before we do.

They already like corrupt, politically motivated loans.

The only rat who shows any sign of grasping this stuff at present is Dennis Kucinich

Yeah, Dennis, Ellen and you are already on the same side. I'm on the right, pointing and laughing.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Thanks. Ted is always good for a laugh.

[wendy1946]

What Ellen Brown is talking about is getting rid of the income tax altogether while governments at all levels would have MORE money available for legitimate purposes than they do now.

Aside from every other form of insanity involved in our present system, there is the question of foreign entities using their own true fiat money to purchase US debt which bears interest, i.e. which we the taxpayers get to pay interest on. I assume the one or two class clowns here are happy with that arrangement...

[wendy1946]

fyi

[wendy1946]

Thanks for the link. The fed/income tax thing strikes me as being like a clock which somebody wound up for a hundred years, and the hundred years are basically up. A hundred years is about as long as anybody could ever go without having to think about some important issue.

[Toddsterpatriot]

What Ellen Brown is talking about is getting rid of the income tax altogether

Replacing it with the earnings of the state run banks? LOL!

there is the question of foreign entities using their own true fiat money to purchase US debt

Well, to buy US debt, you need US dollars.

which bears interest, i.e. which we the taxpayers get to pay interest on

When we keep electing Congressmen who spend too much, we should expect to pay interest on the money they borrow.

The solution to reducing (or eliminating) the interest we pay is not to eliminate the Fed or to give each state their own Fed, the solution is to elect Congressmen who will cut wasteful spending and the borrowing that requires.

[wendy1946]

Prior to Bork Obunga we might have thought we had another ten or fifteen years to fix the problem. At this juncture the problem requires fixing almost immediately.

There is NO system of money or banking which could survive increasing federal debt 50% in a year and a half.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Prior to Bork Obunga we might have thought we had another ten or fifteen years to fix the problem.

Which problem?

There is NO system of money or banking which could survive increasing federal debt 50% in a year and a half.

I thought we did that during WW2?

[10Ring]

What Ellen Brown is talking about is getting rid of the income tax altogether while governments at all levels would have MORE money available for legitimate purposes than they do now.

Non-starter. We suffer from a spending disease. We do not need to help our elected officials find other ways to spend money. And the last thing they need is MORE money. The pork tales of Washington are full of polls who convince the common (dips4!t) voter into all kinds of spending schemes (a greater fool theory for government largesse).

I assume the one or two class clowns here are happy with that arrangement...

First thing they should have learnt you, teach, don't assUme.

[10Ring]

There is NO system of money or banking which could survive increasing federal debt 50% in a year and a half.

I thought Ellen taught you everything about the American Revolution? The U.S.debt of post-Revolution was $75 million. It had increased much more that 50% per year and was absolutely crushing to an infant country with no credit and not much of an economy. It was a debt that needed fixing immediately and Washington and Hamilton fixed it.

Had it not been for that debt we wouldn't have our Constitution, nor, I'd wager, our country. Mastering that debt put the U.S. on strong footing to do things like buy the La. Purchase. I love it when people say it can't be done.

[wendy1946]

I could be wrong, there might actually be some little island country out there which could survive such a thing in today’s world, but the U.S. can’t. Again the only way it’s being handled at present is by keeping interest rates under one percent.

[wendy1946]

Don't know how clear this was... The motivation for understanding these ideas arises from the impact which their implementation could have on all of our lives. You'd be talking about eliminating all personal taxes while simultaneously providing governments at all levels with more than enough money for all legitimate purposes. It's not just a question of eliminating a parasitic banking system, it's a question of eliminating the throttling effect which that system has on productivity in general.

A recent email exchange which I was cc-ed on shows what is involved fairly clearly; The impetus began with one of Jeff Rense's pages and you don't need to read much of it to get seriously pissed off:

"Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die. Through love of having children, we are going to take over."
-- Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets

"They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over. We are here to stay."
-- Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Councilman

"We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population . . . I love it. They are shitting in their pants with fear. I love it!"
-- Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas

"Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens--was the last gasp of white America in California."
-- Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party

"We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country . . . I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, 'I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back.'"
-- Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor

"California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave."
-- Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Governor Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bill Clinton

"We are practicing 'La Reconquista' in California."
-- Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General

"We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos."
-- Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University

"The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot."
-- Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico .......

Worst possible case we could probably take these people and retake California if we don't wait too much longer to do it but that would be a horrific bloody mess and it wouldn't really solve the basic problem which these people are stating correctly. Birth rates in many western countries are catastrophically low at present and our own birth rate is above water only due to immigrants, many such as these.

There is only one real solution to the problem which is that the social milieu of 1955 has to be restored and it has to again become both respectable and financially possible for normal middle class people to marry and start families in their late teens or early twenties which is what the human race is biologically programmed for, raise families on one income, and cease having children raised by nannies and government agencies.

The amount of money required for that would be gigantic.

There is only one basic plan or idea which I know of which would be capable of bringing about such a revolution and that would be the the set of ideas which Ellen Brown lays out in her 'Web of Debt', which I have mentioned above.

The idea that the problem could be fixed by passing draconian abortion laws is wishful thinking. Middle class people basically have children when they feel they can afford it.

[wendy1946]

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