Posted on 05/08/2010 6:05:57 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
Two days until all hell breaks loose...
CBS - Edward Murrow on Non-Confidence Debate
Transcript:
This is London. I spent today in the House of Commons. The debate was opened by Herbert Morrison, one of the ablest members of the Labor Party. He doubted that the government was taking the war seriously. Mr. Morrison said that the Labor Party had decided to divide the House. In other words call for a vote. Mr. Chamberlain, white with anger, intervened in the debate and accepted the challenge. In fact, he welcomed it. He fairly spat the words. He said he had friends in the House and he appealed to them to support him. When he had finished, Mr. David Lloyd George rose and placed his notes upon the dispatch box. And members surged into the room from both doors as though the little square gray-shouldered white haired Welshman were a magnet to draw them back to their seats. He swept the House with his arm and said, “If there is a man here who is satisfied with our production of planes, of guns, of tanks, or the training of troops. Let him stand on his feet.” No one stood.
Interesting note on how our pacific fleet will remain near Hawaii.
I guess stupid is easier to see in hindsight.
http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1940/may40/f08may40.htm
Churchill chosen to lead Britain
Wednesday, May 8, 1940 www.onwar.com
In Britain... For a while it seems that Lord Halifax will be the next prime minister. Most of the Conservative majority in Parliament would prefer to have Halifax, and the Labour minority are also ready to support him. The problem is that as a peer he sits in the House of Lords and this is not ideal for a national leader. At the meeting of senior Conservatives Halifax’s own worries about this leave Churchill as the only alternative.
In Moscow... Timoshenko replaces Voroshilov as commissar for defense. Training programs are soon introduced to correct some of the defects which have appeared during the Winter War.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.etherington/month/thismonth/08.htm
May 8th, 1940
UNITED KINGDOM:
Westminster: “You have sat too long for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!” With devastating effect Leo Amery, one of the most senior Tory MPs, tonight quoted in the House of Commons those angry words used by Oliver Cromwell to the Long Parliament in the 17th century.
Mr. Amery pointed at the Prime Minister as he uttered them. It was the most dramatic moment in the tumultuous two-day debate on the disastrous Norway campaign.
In the vote at the end the government’s majority was reduced to 81 from a normal figure of over 200. Some 40 Tories, including former cabinet members, voted with the opposition parties against Mr. Chamberlain. A large number of other Tories deliberately abstained from voting.
Most MPs now feel that a change in premiership must be imminent. Ahead of the critical vote, Chamberlain petulantly snapped: “I have got my friends in the House.” He soon discovered how many of them deserted him when he faced a vote of no-confidence.
As the shaken Prime Minister left the house, Harold Macmillan and a few other Tory rebels sang the opening bars of ‘Rule Britannia’ while others chanted: “Go, Go, Go!”
There were startling moment before that. Admiral of the Fleet Sir Roger Keyes, a Tory MP and hero of the last war, arrived in the House in full uniform with six rows of medal ribbons on his chest. He denounced Mr. Chamberlain and volunteered personally to lead another naval assault on the enemy in Norway.
As First Lord of the Admiralty Mr. Churchill stoutly declared that he took the fullest share of responsibility for the Norwegian campaign. David Lloyd George, Prime Minister in the last war, told him: “Don’t allow yourself to be converted into an air-raid shelter to keep the splinters from your colleagues.”
Corvettes HMS Godetia and Primrose launched. (Dave Shirlaw)
GERMANY: Jodl’s Diary: Alarming news from Holland. Cancelling of furloughs, evacuations, roadblocks, other mobilisation methods ... Fuhrer does not want to wait any longer. Göring wants postponement until the 10th, at least ... Fuhrer is very agitated; the he consents to postponement until May 10, which he says is against his intuition. But not one day longer ...
U-163 laid down. (Dave Shirlaw)
NORWEGIAN CAMPAIGN: Mark Horan adds:
HMS Glorious is anchored at Greenock taking on provisions, ordnance, stores, and supplies. HMS Furious remains in dockyard hands.
HMS Ark Royal is operating well off Narvik in position 70.30N, 17.00E, covering the Allied forces at Harstad and the surrounding areas. The intent is to maintain a standing Fighter Patrol throughout the day.
Fighter Patrols are flown off at 0540, 0805, 1040, 1305, 1600, and 1810. The fourth patrol of three Skuas of 803 Squadron (Lt. W. P. Lucy, RN) makes the first contact when Midshipman (A) A. S. Griffith, RN engages and damages a Ju-88 and then an He-111. The fifth patrol of three Skuas of 803 Squadron (Lt. L. A. Harris, RM) forces down a Do-26 of KGrzbv 108 in Ofotfjord, but Skua 8M:L2916 takes return fire in its engine and is forced down near Tovik, with a severed oil line. The crew, Sub-Lieutenant P. N. Charlton, RN (P) and Naval Airman F. Culliford, RN (AG) destroy the aircraft and eventually get to friendly forces.
Other activity sees an 820 Squadron Swordfish fly a photo reconnaissance mission over Bogen at request of Flag Officer Narvik, and a afternoon A/S patrol around the Task Force by two 810 Squadron machines. On return, Swordfish 2R crashes over the side while landing aboard, seriously injuring the pilot, Although the crew, Acting Sub-Lieutenant(A) Woodrow Gregory Adams, RN (P), Sub-Lieutenant H. E. H. Pain, RN (O) and Leading Airman H. G. Edwards, RN (AG) were all rescued by HMS Maori, Adams was severely injured and died on 5 October 1940.
Flying for the day ceases at 2130 when the last fighter patrol is recovered.
U.S.S.R.: Marshal Semyon K Timoshenko is appointed Commissar for Defence, replacing Voroshilov.
CHINA: Japanese forces seize Tsaoyang, in Hupeh province.
CANADA: Submarine FS Ajax departed Halifax with escort for Convoy HX-41. (Dave Shirlaw)
I guess stupid is easier to see in hindsight.
What's stupid about basing the Pacific Fleet in Hawaii? It's a lot closer the the future combat zone than San Diego. It was always to be the forward command base for a war with Japan.
The stupid part comes in through lining up our ships and planes as shooting ducks, aligned with not knowing our potential enemy. Thousands died.
1. The Japanese were incredibly lucky to pull off the Pearl Harbor raid. Many things could have gone wrong as, when combined with the attacks on the Philippines, Malaya, and the Dutch East Indies, the Japanese were at the end of their logistical rope.
2. US forces were not just sitting in Hawaii. Hawaii was the staging area for re-enforcements going to the Philippines.
3. The ships were in port as they always are to this day. Ships have to be berthed when not at sea.
4. The principle failure was one of imagination. The US was trying to get to a war footing, but was simply too slow.
a. The radars in Hawaii were not manned properly.
b. The Army (which was responsible for defending the fleet while in port) did not have enough aircraft for proper dawn to dusk patrols.
c. Coordination between the Army and Navy was poor.
d. It took too long for the report from USS Ward about it’s encounter with a midget sub to reach Admiral Kimmel.
Locating the fleet in Hawaii was the least of our problems.
"I guess stupid is easier to see in hindsight."
It's important to remember that in 1940, the Pacific Fleet Commander was Admiral James O. Richardson.
In late 1940 Richardson was fired by President Roosevelt because of his protests over the fleet's assignment to Pearl Harbor.
But note that what Richardson protested was the administration's refusal to allow him to protect and maintain the fleet against possible attack.
The "not possible to defend" referred to below means: not possible given the resources and policies FDR imposed on Richardson.
In other words: Richardson refused to be a sitting duck in Pearl Harbor.
So FDR found another admiral to be his sitting duck.
"Richardson protested this redeployment to President Franklin D. Roosevelt and to other politicians in Washington, arguing that the burden of defending a perimeter so far removed was not possible, despite Japan's attack on China and whatever promises had been made to the British to come to their aid if attacked.
On October 26, 1940, a White House leak to the Washington-based Kiplinger Newsletter predicted that Richardson would be removed as Commander in Chief. He was replaced by Admiral Husband E. Kimmel in February 1941."Richardson is consequently a main focus of historical fact seekers, who claim pre-war intelligence that heavily suggested Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked by the Imperial Japanese Navy in early December was deliberately withheld from the military commanders at Pearl Harbor by the Roosevelt administration.[1]
As of 2010, the CIA refuses to release many of the JN-25 codes deciphered before December 7, 1941."
By simply reviewing your list - we came out stupid at some level. The simple fact that Japan was able to do so much damage is more evidence. I wonder, occasionally, if the whole thing was as set up that provided a target - probably not, but it sure seems stupid.
Thanks, I didn’t know that. Given that additional information, it seems to me the the admiral that took his place should have given some thought to his position that Pearl was too close to harms way. Just lining up the ships and planes seems odd with possible sabotage the only reason to gather stuff.....what able other possibilities?
It all seems just strange.
Roosevelt did not need a “sitting duck” nor was that what he was looking for.
Everybody knew war was coming. Were were trying to throw everything we could into the Philippines before war broke out. But the minute the first Japanese bomb hit Manila, Clark Field, or Cavite, we were at war.
The goal of Japan’s war was to size the oil fields of the Dutch East Indies. The Pearl Harbor Raid was conceived by the Imperial Japanese Navy with the goal crippling the US Battle Fleet to buy time for the East Indies Campaign.
President Roosevelt was not involved with it in any way shape or form. Indeed he did not need it, because the moment Japan decided to attack the Dutch East Indies, Japan decided on war with the US and the British Empire. Because you have to hold Singapore and the Philippines to hold the DEI.
No, there were deficiencies at Pearl harbor to be sure, but it was not a sitting duck. Had the radar been running properly or had the Ward’s report been treated the way it should have, we would have been on alert when the Japanese arrived. The forces there were enough to have given Kido Butai a bloody nose.
The Fleet was moved to Hawaii in 1940 for one reason. That is where it needed to be to deter or fight Japan. Japan chose to fight the US because the US opposed Japan’s invasion of China.
Pearl Harbor was a lucky strike, but not lucky enough, because it only slowed down our response by about six months, tops.
I agree with the general premise that FDR knew an attack was imminent and will add, so did the Army and Navy, but I was struck by this wiki source so I had to look at it a bit closer. The first statement that says that intelligence stated that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked is incorrect if referenced to its own source. The source which is an article by Thomas Fleming states that there was a lot of signs that the Japanese were going to attack but does not give any specifics to exactly where. And Thomas is right. FDR did know we were going to be attacked, but not necessarily at Pearl. The intel at the time had reports of a fleet leaving Shanghai headed south which led them to think that the Philippines was the target....which it was. They did not have intel of the fleet headed to Pearl and even if they were reading every scrap of JN-25 it wouldn't have enlightened them to that fleet because they were under radio silence. Now according to Crane Files there was no JN-25 traffic being read at all in the months prior to Pearl Harbor, so the assertion that the CIA is withholding information is likely bogus and stands to reason why it says [citation needed]. This is why I never cite Wikipedia. It is a good place to get a jump off point for further research, but more often than I would like the details in their write ups leave something to be desired.
The interesting part is that FDR made Richardson announce that it was Richardson’s idea to keep the Fleet in Hawaii. Note that Richardson is reported to have requested that the Fleet remain in Hawaii, which, of course, was the last thing Richardson wanted. Just the first in a long list of deceptions to follow.
Regards,
Tom Kimmel
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