The dog below was born in 1903, a top German specimen of its day. My dogs naturally stand with one leg out behind, not necessarily all the time, but they do so fairly often. They both are descended from pure European bred dogs.
Posted on 02/18/2010 6:17:41 AM PST by JoeProBono
Meaning no disrespect to Sadie the Scottie, who won Best in Show at this year's Westminster competition, and, really, really, really, really, we mean no disrespect to Sadie, who is as terminally adorable as any lapworthy mutt could be.
But, still - another Scottie?
Clearly, the judges are not New Yorkers. This is a sin for which they can be forgiven, but their anti-New York-dog prejudices are unpardonable.
The city is a working town, but the judges have it in for big, brawny, lunchpail-type canines.
There are 26 working breeds, including boxers, Dobermans, Rottweilers and great Danes. In the Best in Show competition's 103-human-year, 721-dog-year history, members of these 26 breeds have taken top prize a grand total of nine times. Meanwhile, darling, darling Scotties have copped eight blue ribbons.
Worse injustices are playing out in plain sight.
According to the American Kennel Club, the most popular breeds among New York City dog owners are, in descending order, Yorkshire terriers, Labradors, dachshunds, Shih Tzus and German shepherds.
But for more than a century, the judges have skunked Labs, dachshunds and Shih Tzus, while deigning to give the nod to a single Yorkie in 1978 and a single German shepherd in 1987.
The insult is palpable. These are among the finest dogs the world has to offer, yet they are treated like curs. Why? Because where these judges are concerned, there's a very big problem at the other end of the leash.
There’s no such thing as “selective pressure” in breeding. What you’re complaining about is people breeding for whatever they want. I have no doubt that English Bullmastiffs are different than American ones. What makes one “better” depends on what you want out of that dog. If the breeders want to, they will go their separate ways and declare that each others bloodlines constitute separate breeds. That has happened in a number of breeds.
“Many working breeds are not as ‘standard’ in their appearance as “show” dogs, but their conformation to form has little correlation to actual performance.”
You need to take a closer look. The best dogs at performance events have remarkably similar conformation. Since you are familiar with Britain, take a look at trials bred Border Collies. In America take a look at field trial English Setters and Irish Setters.
“It is all a matter of what traits you are going to selectively breed for; are you going to emphasize looks, or are you going to emphasize performance.”
I’ve never met anyone who has won big championships (in dogs or horses) who had this point of view. Crooked legs, weak hindquarters and unsound movement matter in performance. An animal which may have the mind to perform a task can be sabotaged by his conformation.
Perfomance itself has to be broken down. Trials are their own form of dog show. Border Collies as we know them now were born out of showing. For farm work you are actually better off with a dog that works in a different style. The same thing goes for the field trial setters I’ve met. They’re not hunting dogs. Schutzhund dogs aren’t police dogs either.
For your money you’d rather have a field trial dog. Well good. I wouldn’t because they often don’t make good pets, too hyper. Conformation bloodline dogs tend to be lower key.
Beautiful dog, but perhaps you could answer a question for me...I always wondered why they show the breed in that stance...I don’t think they naturally stand like that, but I could be wrong......
Take a look at Australian Shepherds, they are hardly standard in appearance; yet they are brilliant herders. The selective pressure upon the breed for many generations has been upon PERFORMANCE rather than APPEARANCE.
Of course a well performing dog will have exemplary physical traits, but this doesn't mean that it conforms in looks and dimensions to the “standard”.
Trials are their own form of dog show, one where the performance of the breed is assessed. A (relatively) ugly Hungarian Vishla might have all the right moves and be a field trial champion; but would be laughed off the stage at an AKC beauty pageant.
A working dog should also not be “diluted” down into a pet. There are plenty of dog breeds that make excellent pets; and most working dogs are also exemplary pets.
If you want to take a working dog breed and turn it into a show dog/pet dog; have at it- but don't expect me to applaud your efforts.
My own Bullmastiff is about as loyal and loving of a dog as you could wish for; but she is more active and a much better performer than any other Bullmastiff I have ever seen. She lives to do her job, and when not doing her job, wants to sit with her head in your lap and be told what a good dog she is. Many other working dogs share this trait.
Satan said "That's a great idea but why are you calling me, you have all the dog up there"
And God replied "Yes, but you have all the judges down there."
It’s doggie RACISM!
I’m biased. I do not like little piddly yappy lap dogs. I love the big working breeds.
The dog below was born in 1903, a top German specimen of its day. My dogs naturally stand with one leg out behind, not necessarily all the time, but they do so fairly often. They both are descended from pure European bred dogs.
On rabbits... I saw a friends Dalmation run down a rabbit in short order. It was no contest and the dalmation seemed to enjoy toying with the rabbit. I didn’t know they could scream like that when flayed.
My friend soundly scolded the dog and made sure it didn’t happen again, but that Dalmation had no problem with that rabbit. Kind of shocking to see how fast and nimble that dog was.
Doggy Ping!
Thank you for the info. I have always wondered about that when watching dog shows.....
Wow. It’s amazing that your neighbor has two Bernese that are over 11. If I ever get one - I want one from that breeder too!
Isn’t that sweet? :) Mine didn’t do that, one would routinely nail a jackrabbit then either stand by it or take me to it like “ok, now it’s no fun anymore. You deal with it”. He was also a terrible counter-cruiser.
Only Two herders? Australian Cattle dogs don’t have a chance
Well rabbits are different. Caged pet rabbits I am sure would be easy to catch. But wild jackrabbits are fast as lightnin with the cornering abilities no dog can match. I am sure my boy could catch a fat pet rabbit. He was chasing a wild rabbit with big long hind legs.
The caged, raised rabbit can actually faint if startled strong enough. Sometimes even the threat of a big dog will cause them to drop.
Breeding is the activity that humans engage in when they want another generation of a domesticate. There is no “selective pressure” on the breeding choices people make. They are simply choosing what they want. As far as pushing looks that is a good thing or else as you point out most (but not all) breeds would look alike and there would be no breeds. Is that what you want, no breeds?
Australian Shepherds were a split breed when I first saw them. Some of them were chosen for performance, some weren’t. The two types had enough similar breed type to be identifiable but they were different and that was before they lobbied to get AKC recognition.
“a well performing dog will have exemplary physical traits, but this doesn’t mean that it conforms in looks and dimensions to the “standard”.”
This is just a funny sentence. The “standard” (that you say they don’t conform to) is a list of “exemplary physical traits” (that you say a well performing dog will have). Puzzle me this batman, does a Whippet have the same “exemplary physical traits” as a Borzoi?
As for the ugly Vizsla winning a field trial championship but unable to compete in conformation, you’re right, they’re two different competitions. However you’ll never see Vizsla people want to see a long haired black spotted dog whose owner calls it a Vizsla in their activity because....it doesn’t conform to the standard.
“A working dog should also not be “diluted” down into a pet. “
Now here we agree. Performance and conformation show dogs are not mutually exclusive territories. Performance and conformation show dogs and good pets aren’t mutually exclusive either. Old family friends who show their German Wirehaired Pointers in conformation, have them as family pets and hunt them extensively in the fall would be surprised that they have to make a choice. My family has guard dogs, herding dogs, obedience dogs, conformation dogs and kid dogs... oh wait they’re all the same dogs. There are lots of breeds that do conformation and performance events. Like you I criticize those who chose not to take the breeds primary function into consideration for breeding decisions. Fortunately many (if not most) breeds can still perform the tasks for which they were created (rat killing terriers, hunting, guard, etc.)
I’m sure you have a great Bullmastiff and she’s perfect for you. But perhaps she’s more similar to show Bullmastiffs than the other members of her breed you have seen. I took a peek at the Bullmastiff sites for Britain and America. The standards are almost identical and the photos of the dogs look the same too. They are smaller and more active looking than a Mastiff. All the ones I’ve seen are strongly muscled suggesting that they spend a lot of time off the couch which your girl does too.
“I was not aware of the harrier dog breed. Looked like a tall beagle.”
Harriers have been around forever. They are a bigger version of a Beagle. Beagles are to chase rabbits, Harriers are for the larger hares. Carried further, you have the American and English Foxhounds for foxes, but they are pretty much all the same concept rendered in different sizes. Small, Medium, Large and Extra-large.
“I thought this link had some great photos of the dogs (backstage.) We have Weims and I got a kick out of the characteristic way the Weim was sitting, ours do the same thing. (guess a breed trait is a breed trait whether they’re show dogs or household pets.)”
sitting like that is definitely a Weim Thing.
“It’s my favorite group, the herding dogs, who really get screwed.”
the reason that Herding Group doesn’t have as many Westminster wins is that they were part of the Working Group until it was split in 1980. That made it a lot harder for BOTH groups to rack up BIS’s there, because of the numbers until that time.
There is a new movement ongoing within the AKC to further divide the groups up, going from the current 7:
Working
Herding,
Sporting,
Hound,
Terrier,
Toy,
Non-Sporting (Misc..). to 10:
Working
Herding
Sporting(Pointers/Setters)
Sporting (Retrievers/Spaniels)
Sight Hound
Scent Hound
Northern
Terrier
Companion
(forgot the other one)
Part of why the Terriers have so many wins is that they are the remaining “original” Group
Working split from Herding
Hound split from Sporting
Toys split from Non-sporting/Other.
the other reason is the huge Terrier bias of the Westminster Kennel Club. Funny for a club that has a Pointer for it’s logo.
These were wild jackrabbits. We bought homes in a new development, which always destroys a lot of habitat and it seems lots of displaced jackrabbits go with new housing starts. This was no pet bunny. It was a wild jackrabbit and while the dalmation didn’t run it down instantly, my friend was frantically trying to recall his dog and the fight was over pretty quickly. Took us a while to cover the distance to where the dog and rabbit were.
Dalmations are not slow dogs.
“On rabbits... I saw a friends Dalmation run down a rabbit in short order. It was no contest and the dalmation seemed to enjoy toying with the rabbit. I didn’t know they could scream like that when flayed.
My friend soundly scolded the dog and made sure it didn’t happen again, but that Dalmation had no problem with that rabbit. Kind of shocking to see how fast and nimble that dog was.”
I was at a Weimaraner club field trial this last weekend, watching and helping with some administrative stuff. 2 Weims were running in Derby (younger, not fully “broke” dogs).. let out at the breakaway and both pointed a bird in the same large brushpile. Handler goes down to flush the bird(s), they go, the blank gun is fired and so on, then out pops a jackrabbit, which is immediately caught by one of the Weims. Weim is prancing around with (dying of fright) rabbit in his mouth.. just hilarious. When the owner of that dog gets back to camp, I told him it was a good thing that it wasn’t Easter, with all the kids around and all.. heheheheh
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