Posted on 09/17/2009 6:37:35 PM PDT by Swordmaker
Apple has won every category it participated in as part of a new study of service and reliablity. The reader-driven PCMag rankings saw it lead the cellphone, desktop, notebook and portable media categories, in some cases with particularly wide margins compared to rivals. Apple's best success was in the notebook category, where MacBooks earned an overall score of 9.2 out of 10 and a very high 9.4 out of 10 "would recommend" score.
The win was a narrow one as Taiwan's ASUS made a relatively large gain to claim second place with 8.8 overall and 9.0 in recommendations. Its general quality has increased and has been helped by the rise in popularity of netbooks. Sony climbed slightly to reach third place with 8.1 overall.
Of all the categories, Apple's widest lead was in cellphones, where it increased to 9.0 and was much higher than next-up Research in Motion, whose BlackBerries only led to a 7.9 score. The difference is partly explained by a jump in the number of BlackBerries that needed fixing, at 38 percent, as well as a drop in the perceived worth of their web browsers; Safari on the iPhone was given an 8.4 mark where RIM's entry fell to 6.0.
In desktops, Apple scored a 9.1 overall and a 9.2 recommendation score, trumping even custom-built systems' respective 8.5 and 8.9 scores. The next-closest name brand was Sony, which scored 8.2, while HP was next at 7.7. Most of Sony's gains came from halving the number of its PCs reported as needing repairs.
Unusually, the tightest margin of victory was in portable media players. Apple's iPod scored an 8.5 (8.9 for recommendations) but was only a tenth of a point ahead of Microsoft's Zune line. The score notably doesn't include the Zune HD or Apple's newest iPods as both were released too soon to make an immediate comparison.
Asus makes some nice Windows notebook PCs.
However, Asus' dozens of models for under $500 are not equivalent hardware, design, and reliability to Apple's Macbooks. A $249 netbook is certainly not even in the running against an $1199 Macbook Pro. Compare equal to equal and you will find that Macs are competitively priced if not less expensive than the equivalent form factor Windows PC.
Just yesterday a Freeper on a Mac thread was telling us about his newly purchased Lenovo Thinkpad T400s— which he claimed was "worth every penny" of the $1750 he paid for it. I found it quite amusing because his new Thinkpad was more expensive than the lighter, larger screened, faster and better processored, better quality and more memory, with a seven hour, designed to last five years, battery equipped Macbook Pro at $1699.
As I stated to him on that thread: "It also shows that the Apple pricing is more than competitive."
Emphasis added. According to the source story, and average Asus laptop is about 96% of the quality/reliability of an average Apple Macbook.
I'm not denying that Apple's are built extremely well; just that when you can get 96% (an 8.8 rating versus a 9.2 rating) for 25% or LESS of the price, well, you have to seriously consider the cost of that last 4% of reliability/quality.
I found it quite amusing because his new Thinkpad was more expensive than the lighter, larger screened, faster and better processored, better quality and more memory, with a seven hour, designed to last five years, battery equipped Macbook Pro at $1699.
In my case, the Macbook Pro simply won't work for my main job (I do have a Macbook Pro running Snow Leopard). Not just because I'd have to load Windows anyway to make it productive (the software I have to use), but the lack of two buttons on the touchpad eliminates a significant portion of the functionality of my CAD program (Alibre). So that right there would be reason the IBM would trounce the Macbook - I can actually get work done on it.
Not to mention that tap-to-click is not possible with Boot Camp, when booting into Windows, which again breaks basic functionality that I rely on when doing CAD on the go.
Macs are well built systems; I don't like the OS that much (yes, I do develop for Macs and Windows - cross-platform stuff, mainly audio apps with PortAudio) mainly because I find the combined menu distracting and limiting (I often stagger apps with menus "stacked" to help me visually isolate each application). The hardware is great. But there are some significant inherent limitations to the platform that makes them a bad choice for some people.
And you simply cannot deny that you pay a LOT more for that slight increase in quality/reliability, per the source article. Me, I'll take a pair of fully-functional $500 laptops over the course of 4 years, versus a single $1200 Macbook. I'll be $50 ahead every year, and will upgrade to new hardware every two, rather than every four, years.
I doubt that. Will that Asus last six years? I have a couple Apple Notebooks that are going on eight and still running as quickly as they did when new (if not quicker, since they've been updated to newer levels of OSX). Your purely mathematical comparison of the ratings is meaningless.
How many of those ratings were for high end Asus notebooks like the B80-B1 (14.1", 2.4 Ghz Core 2 Duo, 2GB DDR2 800MHz SDRAM, 250GB HD, 4 Hr battery) at a discounted $999. that is more comparable to the Macbook Pro (13", 2.53 Ghz Core 2 Duo, 4GB DDR3 1066MHz SDRAM, 250GB HD, 7 Hr. Battery) at Apple's price of $1499. i submit that the Mac is more than a 50% better computer than the Asus B80.
From Boot Camp 3.0 FAQ page:Improved tap-to-click support - The ability to tap the trackpad to click the mouse button is now supported on all Mac portables that run Boot Camp.
I'm not denying that Apple's are built extremely well; just that when you can get 96% (an 8.8 rating versus a 9.2 rating) for 25% or LESS of the price, well, you have to seriously consider the cost of that last 4% of reliability/quality.. . . And you simply cannot deny that you pay a LOT more for that slight increase in quality/reliability, per the source article. Me, I'll take a pair of fully-functional $500 laptops over the course of 4 years, versus a single $1200 Macbook. I'll be $50 ahead every year, and will upgrade to new hardware every two, rather than every four, years.
Now, I'm going to call BS on your entire line of argument as far as the Asus brand of notebook computers is concerned. I just did a search of Amazon for Asus notebook computers and every single one of their NOTEBOOK computer, those with a reasonably powerful processor were OVER $500.
In fact, the lowest priced Asus brand notebook computer on Amazon was $678
Amazon describes every Asus portable computer below $500 as a Mini NETBOOK... and they are, everyone of them, not ready for any serious computing such as you describe! Not one of them could ever attempt to run Alibre CAD productively
The fact is, Puget, that Asus has upped their rating in this survey by selling MID RANGE to HIGH END notebooks that compete fairly well in price with Apple when equipment and features are matched and compared.
Here is the listing of Asus Notebook computers from Amazon, in order of descending price:
Where are your claimed Asus notebooks that "have 96% of the reliability/quality" of a Macbook Pro that are priced "25% or less" (that's $300 or below) than the Macbook Pro's entry model at $1199?
I put it to you that they simply DO NOT EXIST!
The next step down in the ratings are Sony computers... and their offerings are ALSO in the mid-range to high-end, not in the sub $500 bargain basement that you equate with the quality/reliability of Macbooks... but now you are a full 10 points lower than the Mac's ratings.
Your argument is FUD.
If not, then (as a developer myself) I would strongly suspect bugs in the applications -- and not in the iPhone itself...
We have a society which is brought up to believe that there -is- a free lunch, and you -can- get something for nothing. Hell, the advertising says so!
Personally I don't consider those beliefs in keeping with a conservative point of view. While there are altruists in business, they typically aren't in business for long before they become pragmatists. Unless they're working off a government subsidy.
An assessment of the overall cost (purchase price, maintenance, upgrades, longevity, resale value, etc.) is often very different from the simple comparison of initial purchase price.
And then there are less tangible aspects like suitability to a particular purpose, annoyance factors, etc. My boss, who makes his living producing Windows software, was asked why he has Macs at home. He answered, "When I go home, I prefer to use a computer that doesn't constantly piss me off!" What dollar value can you place on that?
Getting drawn into Mac-vs-PC arguments that revolve around purchase price is, IMO, pointless. And since a lot of the other comparative points are hard to quantify, or worse, subjective, I guess I just don't see such squabbles as anything other than a high-tech peeing match.
The primary determining factor for a Mac-vs-PC purchase should always be "What are you going to do with it?", not "How many dead presidents do you have in your wallet?" Then ask, "What characteristics are important to me? Which functions? Shape/size? Claimed reliability? Color, looks, noise, power consumption? Resale value?" Only after you know what you want, and have determined who can provide it, should you try to get it for the lowest legal price.
Just my opinion, of course. YMMV... and clearly, the mileage of others varies a lot.
The apps seem to run well enough on some of the iPhones, as a matter of fact it was recommended to her by some of the other med students. They convinced her that she had to have the iPhone. Of course, they have the previous models and Megan has the latest and the greatest. Another problem was that ALL the apps she loaded would lock up the phone, not just one or two. She even tried installing the apps one at a time without the other apps to try and determine which one was causing the issue. That would work for about a couple of weeks and then, crash time.
As to the names of the apps, I don’t remember. I just know that they were about meds and interactions, notes for each patient and tracking histories, CDC stuff and some medical code information. I am sure that there are other apps, but that is the most I can remember. I DO remember having to wait for about 45 minutes with her to get the phones changed out at Best Buy each time, while they tried to figure out what was going on, before they would call it quits and give her a new phone.
Then the story is bogus? The ratings are no good? Then what's this thread about other than a self-congratulatory group?
The article you posted gave Apple a 9.2 in terms of quality/reliability; it gave Asus an 8.8. A score of 8.8 is 96% of a 9.2 - that's what TFA says.
How many of those ratings were for high end Asus notebooks
Article doesn't say. Last time I was at an Asus factory, most of what they built were cheap units, with lower end capabilities (they're a massive OEM builder). And the story doesn't break it out based upon the processor/RAM used, like you are trying to do.
The article gives Asus an overall 8.8, and Apple a 9.2, for their entire computer lineup. That's what I'm looking at. If you want to try to make the claim that not all Asus computers are as powerful as all Macs, go ahead but that's not what the article states. You could just as well make the claim that not all Macs are as low cost as Apples, too!
And you still ignore the fact - for most people, you don't need the higher end processing capability. A lower end machine - especially a Netbook-class laptop - is plenty. Most people do e-mail, web browsing, upload photos, maybe some Word, and if really pressed Excel. You don't need much more than a 1 GHz Celeron and 256 MB of RAM to do that!
Your claim that Asus hardware is 96% as reliable and of the same quality that are 25% the price of equivalent Apple hardware is bogus. Asus gets that rating BECAUSE they charge a lot more than that. Not one of their notebook computers that you claim are equivalent are below, or even near, the $500 price you claim, much less the vastly exaggerated "25% or less" you also assert.
You were at the Asus factory? Do you work for them?
What Asus builds as an OEM builder is irrelevant to the discussion. Those computers are NOT being considered in the rating that Asus' BRAND NAME computers are being given in the PC Magazine study.
Ignoring that, the article actually DOES say.
"In fact, almost all vendors had fewer responses, with one notable exception: Asus makes our list this year for the first time with a SBA score of 8.8, more than enough to become our second Readers' Choice. You might think that this has to do with the company's successful netbook products, but we drilled deeper into the data to see that netbooks accounted for fewer than 50 percent of the responses we received (other popular types of Asus notebooks are the multimedia, mainstream, and value market segments)." —PC Magazine.". . .multimedia, mainstream, and value market segments. . ." are not low end, cheap units. On Amazon, even the majority of Asus' brand name netbooks were over $500. Asus has elected to put higher quality products under its brand and charge more for them. As a result, THEY, like Apple, are not swimming in the shallow end of the pool and by producing a quality product, Asus has, for the first time in years of making notebooks, made the PC Magazine list. Apple, by producing premium, mid and high end notebooks has consistently been at the top of the list for years.
Maintaining the quality and reliability is also not assured in the Windows world. As the PC Mag article states "Last year's second Readers' Choice, Lenovo, didn't make the cut this year." It's not even on the list, apparently because their quality and reliability took a hit last year for whatever reason.
"Notebooks less than a year old, just like desktops of that vintage, always get higher marks. This year is no different, and, in fact, brings us to the highest numbers among computers: Apple's SBA 9.5 overall rating for one-year-old MacBooks. Its youthful laptops received a 9.6 in reliability and likelihood to recommend, too. Asus made another fine showing—after barely making the cut in this part of the survey with only 55 responses—with a SBA 8.9 overall, and a tremendously low percentage of products needing repair: 2 percent. Apple itself was at 5 percent needing repair.And what's with Lenovo and Dell? 16 percent of their new notebooks needed a fix, according to our readers." —ibid., PC Magazine.
Asus' rating could be fleeting; Lenovo's certainly was. All it takes is some bean counter somewhere to lower the quality of components to "make more money" and the overall customer satisfaction could tank.
You don't need much more than a 1 GHz Celeron and 256 MB of RAM to do that!
Since Microsoft says that their official minimum system requirements for both Vista and Windows7 are 1GB of RAM, that's just more misinformation.
You started this discussion by claiming that Asus has "dozens" of notebooks below $500 that 96% matched the quality and reliability of Apple's notebooks. You further exaggerated that into "25% or less" the price of Apple's offerings. I have shown that to be totally false: Asus does not even have one notebook in that price range. Asus gets that rating because they have chosen to build high quality, reliable notebook computers that are, when compared feature for feature, price competitive with most of Apple's quality, reliable notebook computers. Making that decision has paid off. Your argument low cost argument is FUD.
There's your first (and huge!) mistake. The idiots I've encountered at Best Buy are barely (being generous here...) competent on Windows, They are totally useless on anything using OS X. (And most of them resent being asked to do so.)
I know that here in the NE TX Piney Woods, I am a long way from an Apple Store -- but, are there no Apple Stores in Florida?
Even if she was so naiive as to buy an Apple product from Best Buy, she should take her iPhone and problem to an Apple Store -- because Apple supports their products -- intelligently -- no matter where they are purchased.
BTW, I'm assuming here that she did get her apps from the Apple AppStore, and that she is running the latest version -- right?
I'm still wondering if the app developers didn't use typical Microsoft sloppiness -- such as not releasing memory after it has been used. If the apps were "ported over" from a Windoze original, then those sorts of problems are a 'given'.
Bottom line: if you've/she's been dealing with Best Buy, one visit to an Apple Store will be a very pleasant revelation to you!
“Best Buy was your FIRST mistake!”
No, it was my daughter who bought the phone there.
“but, are there no Apple Stores in Florida?”
Yes there are, but do not get me started with the smarmy “GENIUSES” who work there! When I had a problem with MY OWN G4 Power PC (digital audio) that I have had for quite sometime, the only thing that the “GENIUSES” would talk to me about was buying a new computer! I wanted a FIX, they just wanted into my wallet. I finally fixed the problem MYSELF. The “GENIUSES” were useless and condescending if you don’t already own the latest and the greatest product that they are offering.
“Even if she was so naiive as to buy an Apple product from Best Buy, she should take her iPhone and problem to an Apple Store — because Apple supports their products — intelligently — no matter where they are purchased. “
I would not call my daughter “naive”, she is, like myself, more of the “get it done” type personality. You got, I want it, price is right, it’s mine. She does not live in the same city where we live so I really had very little input as to where she would buy the phone, but she is, like her mother, intensely intelligent.
“Bottom line: if you’ve/she’s been dealing with Best Buy, one visit to an Apple Store will be a very pleasant revelation to you!”
Been there, done that, left pissed off and disgusted.
PCMag rankings? Wow. :’) Thanks Swordmaker. I would like to know who made this mid1990s hard drive still running in this PM 7600...
Asus made a nice move as well, martin.
Hmmm, the article gives Asus - not breaking out for various models, but across the entire brand - an 8.8 on quality/reliability. Apple gets a 9.2 on that same ranking. Now, my math may be a little rusty, but I do know that 8.8 divided by 9.2 is about 96% (well, 95.6% and change). So sure enough, my claim about the reliability/quality score is accurate as far as the article goes.
And the Asus eeePC is $249; since the article didn't exclude them, and they are the best-selling Asus laptop, then the Asus ratings would be HEAVILY weighted with those cheap $249 laptops (this year, about 50% of the laptops that Asus sells are eeePCs). Which are 1/4 or lower in price than the low-end Macbooks.
Asus also sells a ton of low-end laptops in Best Buy, Staples, Office Depot, and throughout Asia. Rarely do you find Asus laptops selling for more than $600 or so - including the multimedia units. You can find them at higher prices, but what moves volume are the sub-$600 units. How many Apple laptops are there at that pricepoint? Any? Any at all?
How about at 104% of that pricepoint (so that the quality/reliability rating to cost is equalized)? Anything from Apple at $625?
You're the one that keeps adding "equivalent hardware"; it's NOT IN THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE. Just overall brand reliability. Apparently Asus - with lower end, MUCH lower cost machines - can get you 96% of the quality/reliability score of an Apple.
If that offends your Apple Fanboi senses, then so be it. There's no exaggeration in my statement, it comes straight from the article you linked. And how many Apple notebooks are available for under $700? That is where the bulk of the laptop market (80% or more) resides.
As far as working for Asus, no I've worked for some of their (and Flextronics, and Compal - who makes Apple notebooks) OEM clients. I've seen "crap" Dells and "awesome" Apples roll out of the exact same factory! Neither one makes their own laptops, they subcontract it out, they are built on the same lines by the same people.
Which means that, yes, I work "in" the field, specifically designing and sourcing audio subsystems for laptops (including Apple). I get the scoop on what volumes are run for different price/models. When a manufacturer asks for pricing on 2M units a year on a $500 laptop, and then 100K on a $1500 laptop, well, you know what each pricepoint sells - it's NOT the same volume.
And those same, sub-$300 netbooks are about 25% of the entire notebook market. The market is DOMINATED by the low-cost products.
The bottom line: Apple's are expensive because they use expensive parts, and their quality edge (slight as it is according to your article) is a reflection of that much higher price you pay. Is it worth it? Well, if you want those last few percentage points of quality/reliability for a factor of 3 or 4 increase in price, then yes. But crowing about "winning the quality" award when you have such a massive disparity in cost of products? I guess you have to cheer about something!
But since I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid of Steve Jobs, I'll bow out...
And again, Puget, where are these "dozens" of sub $500 Asus brand notebook computers you claimed could best the Apple notebooks. I don't consider your underpowered, teeny, cramped keyboard, small screened netbooks even in the same category. A netbook is NOT THE SAME PRODUCT CATEGORY AS A NOTEBOOK.
Saying it is is equivalent to comparing a moped to a luxury four door sedan and claiming they are equivalent because both have motors and are capable of getting a single rider from point A to point B.
As for "heavily weighted" to netbooks, you must have missed the part in the article about how PCMagazine's examination of the data showed that better than 50% of the reporting Asus users were using machines that would be classified as midrange and higher end Asus notebooks. You also must have missed the part about Asus products only barely getting included in the cut when only 55 Asus responders answered the important question about whether they would be likely to recommend the Asus brand to friends, thus barely squeeking by the threshhold of being excluded completely for lack of sufficient statistical sample size.
Enjoy riding your moped, Puget.
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