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Vatell's "Law of Nations" and our Founding Fathers *NEW Findings!*
The Liberty Pole ^ | 5/22/2009 | Unknown

Posted on 08/01/2009 6:48:21 AM PDT by wbones8765

There has been much debate as to whether the term “Natural Born Citizen” has ever been legally defined or will some court have to finally define it, such as the Supreme Court of the United States. The term “Natural Born Citizen” is a requirement for only two positions within our government, President and Vice-President. What did the Founding Father’s and Framers of the United States Constitution mean to do or accomplish by placing this requirement for the highest office?

First off, let us look at what the Framer’s used as a guide.

The Founding Fathers of the United States, used Vattel’s Laws of Nations as their guide and reference to meanings and definitions within our Constitution.

The myth that the founding of American Republic was based on the philosophy of John Locke could only have been maintained, because the history of Leibniz’s influence was suppressed. The American Revolution was, in fact, a battle against the philosophy of Locke and the English utilitarians. Key to this struggle, was the work of the Eighteenth-century jurist, Emmerich de Vattel, whose widely read text, The Law of Nations, guided the framing of the United States as the world’s first constitutional republic. Vattel had challenged the most basic axioms of the Venetian party, which had taken over England before the time of the American Revolution, and it was from Vattel’s The Law of Nations, more than anywhere else, that America’s founders learned the Leibnizian natural law, which became the basis for the American System.


TOPICS: History; Reference; Society
KEYWORDS: article2section1; barackobama; bho44; birthcertificate; birthers; certifigate; colb; naturalborn; naturalborncitizen; obamanoncitizenissue; vattel
I do not know if this article has been posted. I did a couple of searches and couldn't find it. I thought it might be of interest to many on this site!!!! Steve, of http://nobarack08.wordpress.com/ is the person being interviewed, and did the research.
1 posted on 08/01/2009 6:48:21 AM PDT by wbones8765
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To: wbones8765

Here is the link:

http://thelibertypole.ning.com/forum/topics/vatells-law-of-nations-and-our


2 posted on 08/01/2009 6:49:28 AM PDT by wbones8765 ("Give me liberty or give me death")
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To: wbones8765

I don’t have time to read and study ... but quick glancing SEEMS to indicate the BC is a non issue ... am I right?


3 posted on 08/01/2009 7:06:17 AM PDT by knarf
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To: knarf

Yes, the research that was done was from the Library of Congress. It does make a great case that the term NBC comes from Vattel. That would mean Obama is not eligible. It would require SCOTUS for offical decree.


4 posted on 08/01/2009 7:13:58 AM PDT by wbones8765 ("Give me liberty or give me death")
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To: wbones8765

Natural Born Citizen legally defined

Posted on by nobarack08

There has been much debate as to whether the term “Natural Born Citizen” has ever been legally defined or will some court have to finally define it, such as the Supreme Court of the United States.  The term “Natural Born Citizen” is a requirement for only two positions within our government, President and Vice-President.  What did the Founding Father’s and Framers of the United States Constitution mean to do or accomplish by placing this requirement for the highest office?

First off, let us look at what the Framer’s used as a guide.

The Founding Fathers of the United States, used Vattel’s Laws of Nations as their guide and reference to meanings and definitions within our Constitution. 

The myth that the founding of American Republic was based on the philosophy of John Locke could only have been maintained, because the history of Leibniz’s influence was suppressed. The American Revolution was, in fact, a battle against the philosophy of Locke and the English utilitarians. Key to this struggle, was the work of the Eighteenth-century jurist, Emmerich de Vattel, whose widely read text, The Law of Nations, guided the framing of the United States as the world’s first constitutional republic. Vattel had challenged the most basic axioms of the Venetian party, which had taken over England before the time of the American Revolution, and it was from Vattel’s The Law of Nations, more than anywhere else, that America’s founders learned the Leibnizian natural law, which became the basis for the American System.

Benjamin Franklin’s (a signer of our Constitution) letter to Charles W.F. Dumas, December 1775
“I am much obliged by the kind present you have made us of your edition of Vattel. It came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising state make it necessary frequently to consult the Law of Nations. Accordingly, that copy which I kept (after depositing one in our own public library here, and send the other to the College of Massachusetts Bay, as you directed) has been continually in the hands of the members of our congress, now sitting, who are much pleased with your notes and preface, and have entertained a high and just esteem for their author”?

I am sure most reading this will know who Benjamin Franklin was. However one reference will not squell the unbelief that Vattel’s Laws of Nations, is not clear enough. So do a search on Laws of Nations and you will get HUNDREDS of responses. http://rs6.loc.gov/ammem/hlawquery.html This from the Library of Congress.  Another excellent post is the following; The concept of judicial review, which Hamilton had championed in Rutgers v. Waddington, was included in the U.S. Constitution. In {The Federalist Papers,} No. 78, “The Judges as Guardians of the Constitution,” circulated as part of the debate over the new Constitution, Hamilton developed a conception of constitutional law which was coherent with Vattel’s conception. Hamilton stated that it is a “fundamental principle of republican government, which admits the right of the people to alter or abolish the established Constitution, whenever they find it inconsistent with their happiness.” However, the Constitution can only be changed by the nation as a whole, and not by the temporary passions of the majority or by the legislature. Both to protect the Constitution, but also to ensure just enforcement of the law, the independence of the judiciary from the legislature and the executive branch is essential. The judiciary must be the guardians of the Constitution, to ensure that all legislative decisions are coherent with it. This idea championed by Hamilton, that the courts ensured that the Executive and Legislative branches followed the Constitution, was later established as a principle of American jurisprudence by Chief Justice John Marshall

Again proving the Constitution, it’s meaning, it’s wording , and it’s definitions were clearly a result of being referenced to Vattel’s Laws of Nations. So what does the Laws of Nations say about a “Natural Born Citizen”?

Vattel in Bk 1 Sec 212, states the following. 

§ 212. Citizens and natives.

The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.

As I have stated before and will state here again.  Barack Obama, he has admitted being a British citizen at birth. From his own web-site,  “When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.

Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.”

How can a British subject at birth, be free from any foreign influence as described by John Jay in the following; 

The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 [Farrand's Records, Volume 3]
LXVIII. John Jay to George Washington.3
[Note 3: 3 Documentary History of the Constitution, IV, 237.]
New York 25 July 1787

Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise & seasonable to provide a a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expresly that the Command in chief of the american army shall not be given to, nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.

Again Alexander Hamilton (a signer of our Constitution) in the Gazette of the United States, published in Philadelphia, on June 29, 1793 “The second article of the Constitution of the United States, section first, establishes this general proposition, that “the EXECUTIVE POWER shall be vested in a President of the United States of America…The executive is charged with the execution of all laws, the law of nations, as well as the municipal law, by which the former are recognized and adopted.”

“The Law of Nations” provides the Constitutional definition of a “natural born citizen, historical records reveal that Vattel’s work was quoted at the Federal Constitutional Convention of 1787, various State Constitutional Conventions, and was also referenced in a 1785 letter by John Jay regarding a diplomatic matter.

Should any court finally decide that there IS ample evidence that Barack Obama is not qualified to hold the Office of the President of the United States, they will have to rely on Vattel as the defining definition and argument, and stare reality in the face that not only is Barack Obama unqualified, but that he is not even a US Citizen.

As a final note concerning the Supreme Court and Laws of Nations, I direct you to the following;

The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution [Elliot's Debates, Volume 3]
Saturday, June 21, 1788.

Page 564

There is to be one Supreme Court–for chancery, admiralty, common pleas, and exchequer, (which great eases are left in England to four great, courts,) to which are added criminal jurisdiction, and all cases depending on the law of nations–a most extensive jurisdiction. This court has more power than any court under heaven. One set of judges ought not to have this power–and judges, particular, who have temptation always before their eyes. The court thus organized are to execute laws made by thirteen nations, dissimilar in their customs, manners, laws, and interests. If we advert to the customs of these different sovereignties, we shall find them repugnant and dissimilar. Yet they are all forced to unite and concur in making these laws. They are to form them on one principle, and on one idea, whether the civil law, common law, or law of nations. The gentleman was driven, the other day, to the expedient of acknowledging the necessity of having thirteen different tax laws. This destroys the principle, that he who lays a tax should feel it and bear his proportion of it. This has not been answered: it will involve consequences so absurd, that, I presume, they will not attempt to make thirteen different codes. They will be obliged to make one code. How will they make one code, without being contradictory to some of the laws of the different states?

Allow me to make one more reference;

The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution [Elliot's Debates, Volume 4]
Seamen’s Bill.–For the Regulation of Seamen on Board the Public Vessels, and in the Merchant Service of the United States.
House of Representatives, February, 1813.

Mr. SEYBERT. The Constitution of the United States declares, Congress shall have power “to establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies, throughout the United States.” Sir, the rule only relates to the mode; it is only operative during the nascent state of the political conversion, and it ceases to have effect the moment after the process has been completed. Your Constitution only recognizes the highest grade of citizenship that can be conferred. The alien is thus made a native, as it were, and is fully vested with every eight and privilege attached to the native, with the exception impressed on the Constitution Your statutes cannot deprive any particular species of citizens of the right of personal liberty, or the locomotive faculty, because the Constitution does not characterize the citizens of the United states as native and naturalized. Our great family is composed of a class of men forming a single genus, who, to all intents and purposes, are equal, except in the instance specified–that of not being eligible to the presidency of the United States. The only exception to the rule is expressed in the Constitution. If other exceptions had been contemplated by the framers of that instrument, they would also have been expressed. None other having been expressed, he said, it followed that your legislative acts could not make individual exceptions touching the occupation of a citizen. All freemen, citizens of the United States, may pursue their happiness in any manner and in any situation they please, provided they do not violate the rights of others. You cannot deny to any portion of your citizens, who desire to plough the deep, the right to do so, whilst you permit another portion of them the enjoyment of that right.

 

Mr. ARCHER. The framers of our Constitution did not intend to confine Congress to the technical meaning of the word naturalization, in the exercise of that power–the more especially when the comprehensive word rule was made use of. The principle upon which the power was to be exercised was left to the judicious exercise of Congress; all that was required was, that the rule should be uniform throughout the states. In the grant there is no other specification, as to the exercise of it, than that of its uniformity. The term naturalization was borrowed from England. It must be understood here in the sense and meaning which was, there attached to it. Whether it was absolute or qualified, it was still a naturalization. But the grant of a power in general terms necessarily implied the right to exercise that power in all its gradations. It Was in the political as it was in the natural world: the genus included the species. Besides, the power to naturalize was an attribute to sovereignty. It was either absolute or qualified; and if the grant to Congress only implied a power of unlimited naturalization, the power to qualify existed in the states or in the people, for what was not specifically granted was reserved.

In treating of the executive power, the Constitution defines the qualifications of the President. It declares that he should be a natural-born citizen, or a citizen at the adoption of the Constitution. This article is unquestionably no limitation of the power of Congress upon the subject of naturalization. It was impossible to abridge a specific grant of power without a specific limitation, and the article alluded to could not be tortured, by the most ingenious mind, to diminish, even by implication, the authority of Congress upon a subject to which it was totally irrelevant.


5 posted on 08/01/2009 7:18:07 AM PDT by plsjr (<>< ... reality always gets the last vote.)
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To: plsjr

Thanks I found the article on another blog. I did go to the original site, and included it on the bottom of my original comment.


6 posted on 08/01/2009 7:21:39 AM PDT by wbones8765 ("Give me liberty or give me death")
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To: wbones8765

Placemarker for later reading, n00b.


7 posted on 08/01/2009 7:38:06 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: wbones8765

So, are loyalties conveyed genetically?


8 posted on 08/01/2009 7:44:45 AM PDT by Sloth (Irony: Freepers who call Ron Paul a "nut" but swallow all the birth certificate conspiracy crap.)
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To: Sloth

So, are loyalties conveyed genetically?


Sloth, don’t be stupid. “by soil” and “by blood” refer to place and CULTURE. The PEOPLE among whom you are born. The assumption is that you have greater interest in the well-being of those among whom you are born than, say, a culture that is your enemy, or merely annoying neighboring village.

Please, you know that biological ties can be very powerful, despite what liberals will have you believe. Think of adopted children who do everything they can to find their birth parents. Look at how strongly Obama identifies with Kenyan culture.


9 posted on 08/01/2009 8:13:14 AM PDT by bioqubit
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To: wbones8765
It's definition has been there for centuries, it's only when someone gets their panties in a wad that they have to go running to the SCOTUS on something like this. Just because BJ didn't know the meaning of “is” was no cause to run it up the flagpole to the Supremes. You want something more recent than the founding fathers? How about going by the definition Obama agreed upon just last year? When McCain's citizenship was questioned a Senate committee was formed to resolve the problem. That committee consisted of 5 RATS (inculding Obama and Hillary), 1 Republican, and Chertoff (former federal judge and head of Homeland Security) was asked to weigh in. They agreed down through the years and by “common sense” “natural born” was eligibility through both parents (the plural) being US citizens.

http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200804/041008c.html

10 posted on 08/01/2009 8:43:17 AM PDT by bgill (The evidence simply does not support the official position of the Obama administration)
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To: RegulatorCountry; BP2

ping


11 posted on 08/01/2009 8:46:26 AM PDT by txhurl (Put the pressure on and keep it on until this administration snaps.)
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To: knarf

Correct. The matter of genealogy is at least equally, and arguably more important, than geography. A child's parents must be citizens of this nation (natural born, naturalized, or exempted by Article II) in order for the child to be considered "natural born" himself. Still, the BC is not a non-issue at all, in my opinion, as it easily draws more inquiring minds into the discussion.


12 posted on 08/01/2009 9:46:13 AM PDT by so_real ( "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.")
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To: Sloth
In creating a Constitutional Republic, with no allegiance to a sovereign king, queen or lord, it was necessary to make the citizens themselves sovereign. Therefore, allegiance under a Constitutional Republic is to the people, as in "We, The People." The concept of a natural-born citizen follows suit with this conceptualization, and the difference between this and the British natural born subject becomes clear.

Born into allegiance to the citizens means born of citizens, jus sanguinis. Born of the soil, jus solis, avoids further competing allegiances or legal claims upon a President or Vice President, based upon citizenship. The two are combined in the Constitutional natural-born citizen. All other forms of citizenship have been or are conferred or imposed via statute, lex soli.

Viewing the matter through the lens of the Framers, guided by Vattel, in opposition to the British monarchy but products of that realm, provides a great deal of clarity.

It's been my understanding that several sitting Presidents were under arrest orders by the British at various times, right up to the War Of 1812. Now, what do you suppose gave the British the idea that they were intitled to do such a thing?

13 posted on 08/01/2009 6:36:59 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: txhurl

I was already here and composing a reply when you pinged me, lol.

Thanks, though.


14 posted on 08/01/2009 6:38:45 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: wbones8765

This from the late lamented “The Obama File”:

The term natural born citizen was first codified in writing in colonial reference books in 1758 in the legal reference book “Law of Nations.”

That legal reference book was used by John Jay, who later went on to become the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. Jay had the clause inserted into the Constitution via a letter he wrote to George Washington, the leader of the Constitutional Convention. Jay was considered the outstanding legal scholar of his time and he was the one is responsible for inserting that term into the U. S. Constitution, which was derived from the Law of Nations.

John Jay wrote: “Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and reasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.”

Law OfNations

Emmerich de Vattel was a Swiss jurist who attained world preeminence in international law. This was primarily the result of his great foundational work, which he published in 1758. His monumental work — The Law of Nations — applied a theory of natural law to international relations. His scholarly, foundational, and systematic explanation of the Law of Nations was especially influential in the United States.

The Law of Nations was so influential in the United States because his principles of liberty and equality coincided with the ideals expressed in the U. S. Declaration of Independence. In particular, his definitions in terms of Law governing nations regarding citizenship, defense of neutrality, and his rules for commerce between neutral and belligerent states were considered authoritative in the United States.

Many have said that de Vattel’s Law of Nations was THE primary reference and defining book used by the framers of the U. S. Constitution. It is really not possible to overstate the influence of de Vattel’s Law of Nations as the primary reference book in the drafting of the U. S. Constitution. Emmerich de Vattel’s Law of Nations is almost beyond comparison in its value as a defining document regarding U. S. Constitution intent and interpretation. The Law of Nations, or the Principles of Natural Law, published in 1758, is the first, and ONLY, definitive work the Framers of the U. S. Constitution used for the inclusion of the “Natural Born Citizen” phrase. It nails what is meant by the “natural born citizen” phrase of Section 1, Article 2, of the U. S. Constitution.

It is amazing how perfectly, precisely, and explicitly what Emmerich de Vattel, wrote in paragraph 212, of book 1, chapter 19, of The Law of Nations entitled CITIZENS AND NATIONS, applies to the Obama FRAUD. Quite clearly and explicitly it defines why Obama, can NOT possibly be qualified to be the President of the United States. Obama MUST be disqualified from the office of President of the United States according to the U. S. Constitution Section 1 Article 2.

“The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society can not exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as a matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. THE COUNTRY OF THE FATHERS IS THEREFORE THAT OF THE CHILDREN.”


15 posted on 08/01/2009 7:04:10 PM PDT by DMZFrank
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To: Sloth

Article II Sec 1 clause 5 was not intended to be a GUARANTEE against a disloyal POTUS. We did have Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.

It was meant to minimize the possibility, in concurrence with a vigilant citizenry, whom the cultural marxists in the educational, entertainment, and journalistic establishments have succeded in diminishing.


16 posted on 08/01/2009 7:28:42 PM PDT by DMZFrank
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To: DMZFrank

Link past the opening page. The site isn’t gone.

http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaNaturalBorn.htm


17 posted on 08/01/2009 7:56:40 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

Thanks. I downloaded all the tresure chest of info on this valuable site.


18 posted on 08/01/2009 8:13:04 PM PDT by DMZFrank
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To: DMZFrank

Cached link here

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=%22theobamafile+com%22&d=76456213741985&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=ed445d61,5d8802df


19 posted on 08/01/2009 8:13:54 PM PDT by DMZFrank
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To: knarf

It is, as Leo D’Onofrio and others have argued, a secondary issue at best and really not relevant to the discussion since the proof of Hussein’s ineligibility has been out in the open all along (his own campaign website indicated he was born a British subject).


20 posted on 08/02/2009 4:23:51 AM PDT by Scanian
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