Posted on 07/13/2009 8:48:39 PM PDT by FARS
Hardly, Lolo could have believed the false information he was fed by Stanley Ann. Likely never saw the birth certificate.
Although you are correct, it is a piece of evidence indicating, but far from proving, Barry was born in Honolulu. Of course he legal name wasn't Barry, and likely was never Soetoro either. But the long form/vault birth certificate would indicate the name change if there was a formal adoption.
The Fall 1960 '(First day of instruction 9/26/1960)' Text must have been added later by someone else. The first image capture I have saved shows only 'Fall 1960'
That leads me to believe she may have been enrolled, but there's nothing to indicate that she actually attended.
Or anywhere else but the US. As you say, the law is clear on that. But that's just "citizenship", which is only necessary but not sufficient for "natural born citizenship".
You'd need her transcript to know that. It would show if she withdrew or which courses, if any, she completed.
Also her admissions paperwork to U. of Washington would also show attendece, or not, at U. Hawai`i.
That's what I've been saying since forever...
All certainly possible.
The Contacts and friends in Seattle sort of cut against your thought because if she was getting out of the way because she was in an unfortunate pregnancy, she wouldn't want to be accessible to contacts and friends. Further, if that had happened, they would all have known exactly what happened and yet none of them said anything about it when they were being interviewed when he was running for President.
Don't think a mixed race baby would have had any reception in Canada in 1961.
I don't see what the last paragraph adds to the analysis. She might have enrolled by mail at the U but in the fall of 1961, the U of W was a relatively looser operation.
She didn't stay in Seattle because whoever was paying the bills and calling the shots wanted a record that he was a citizen in Hawaii and thought it was important to get him there.
If I had been in charge of her record, or her mother's effort, I would have got the kid back to Hawaii as soon as possible after birth; called one of my doctor friends who delivered babies at one of the local hospitals; got birth document forms filled out complete with the footprint; and had him slip them into the stack with the rest of his deliveries at the hospital. If she'd done that, we wouldn't be having the discussion even though we know he was born in Mombassa.
Questionable what they did do but I think they took him back to Hawaii because the planned to do something to report his birth that required his presence. Further, I suspect that given the fact that she had been living the last six months with his family in Kenya, they all hoped that she would just move back in with him and establish a happy little family while he was in college at U of H.
The decision to send her to the U of W was made in later August after it appeared that dreamworld wasn't going to happen.
Oman is a place.
Omen is an indication of the future
And Onan? He's a jerk...
OK both my quote at the beginning and your restatement of my quote are both poorly written and misleading so let's have another crack at the point.
The legal on citizenship at birth is clear. If he was born in Kenya, he did not become a citizen of the United States at the time of his birth.
And as discusssed in a number of places here, although there is no Supreme Court decision on the question, US citizenship at birth if it is obtained under the citizenship statutes as the baby comes down the shute outside the United States, does not appear to constitute "natural born" citizenship for purposes of the Constitutional provision regarding elibigility to serve as President of the US.
I guess I would add, since it is clear he didn't get bare legal citizenship at all, you don't even reach the second kind of citizenship issue.
Is this for real?
When I have to spend time cleaning up my own drafting like this, I need to focus on the other stuff I am trying to do--although your addition of the bold in my quote is what raises the issue.
Even though there is no legal marriage record (a license; a certificate; a pastor's report; whatever), I think there is enough record to make them legally married for most purposes; for property ownership purposes; for purposes of testing the legitimacy of their children; for joint tax return filing; for a whole host of other legal issues in most jurisdictions involving the question of marriage even though there isn't any civil authority record.
To determine whether they were or were not married for any specific purpose, you would have to look at the law on that particular purpose and at local marriage law.
What makes you think Obama Sr and Stanley Anne ever shared property or a tax return? What property? What year did either or both file income tax?
It takes time to enroll in a new school, especially one outside your state of residence, more so in 1961 than today. You have to apply for admission, get accepted, etc, etc.
Even in state, I had to start the process in the winter of '67-'68 to enroll in fall of '68. I doubt U Wa was any more efficient, than U. Nebraska. I know Oklahoma was still less efficient than Nebraska had been in '67-68 , 7+ years later. Although enrolling as special, non degree seeking, grad student was easier than undergrad or regular grad student. She didn't stay in Seattle because whoever was paying the bills and calling the shots wanted a record that he was a citizen in Hawaii and thought it was important to get him there.
Washington state, or any other state would have served just as well for making him a US Citizen, which would have been the objective of any scheme to show him born in the US, rather than someplace outside the county. In '61 even commies thought being a US citizen was a worthwhile thing. It was just easier to "fake it" in Hawaii, for several reasons, one being Grandma Toot's position in the area.
Most likely she didn't stay in Seattle because, BHO Sr, was no longer in Hawaii, she had money troubles, and probably Grandma and Grandpa Dunham were re-thinking the notion of being isolated from their grand-baby and daughter. Time heals those sort of wounds. I know it finally did for my wife's family when her sister married a man of a another race, and had two children with him. Believe me, not only is he the best of her three husbands, he's a hell of a nice guy, unlike BHO Sr, who was a womanizing drunk.
The agreement to give up the baby was more likely something Toot came up with. Stanley Ann could go to Washington, which is what she wanted anyway, in exchange for going elsewhere to have the baby and giving it up for adoption. Under this theory, the friends in the area, Toot's friends, would have helped locate a place where she could have the baby and which specialized in "unwed mothers", even if S.A. wasn't unwed, and finding homes for the babies. There is just such a place "Grace Hospital" in Vancouver. The friends may possibly even have provided a place for Stanley Ann to live for the last months of her pregnancy.
Even though classes at U Washington didn't start until late September, one would need to show up a few weeks early to find lodging, probably go through class registration, and otherwise settle in, before classes started.
Questionable what they did do but I think they took him back to Hawaii because the planned to do something to report his birth that required his presence
The official Hawaii birth certificates of that era did not show footprints, or anything else that would positively ID a person as being the one described on the certificate. Normally they had the hospital and doctor's name (and signature) but even that wasn't required if the birth was reported as being "at home". All that was required was a signature of a witness in addition to a parent's signature, (usually the mother's). You did not even actually need to prove there *was* a baby at all. You could create a false person, if one had some reason to do that. However the BC would clearly indicate a "home birth" and that alone would be somewhat suspicious given the 'station' of Stanley Ann's parents, particularly her mother. Something a "native woman" or a "farm worker" might do, but not the child of a banker. It wasn't cool in '61.
I don't. The point is that the issue of whether someone is "married" or not isn't a simple straight over tackle legal question. Particularly in the modern world.
In most jurisdictions, her verification of the complaint under oath stating that she was married to him and other statements that she was married and the fact that she blew several grand hiring a lawyer to divorce him is probably enough to make them "married" for many purposes; among them those listed. Not that they ever did any of them but if the divorce involved an argument over whether they jointly owned a home or could file a joint tax return or whatever, the legal result would be to treat them as married.
There is a citizenship legal issue in the case involving whether or not they were married. I think these kinds of considerations resolve it.
I wasn't sure whether Polerik was making a point with the portion of my quote he highlighted so I thought I should clarify it.
My own view is that the absence of a paper record of a marriage in Hawaii could well be resolved by a records search in Kenya which would also support my view about the course of events that left Stanley Ann in Kenya when Barack was born.
Although a lot of the native marriages were not documented in the same fashion as we would expect in the US, this one might well have been documented with the British Civil Authorities given who the groom was.
The decision and enrollment at Washington in 1961 could have been made in mid September. I have first hand knowledge.
Concur.
Concur w/773 also
the myth of barack obamas early life.LINK.
See page seven of nine. Stanley Ann Dunham is shown in the Polk Directory as Anna Obama, yet she is enrolled at the U of W as Stanley Ann Dunham... FOR EXTENSION COURSES. The author even provides details of credits earned. EXTENSION COURSES can be completed by CORRESPONDENCE. That address proves nothing - she may not have been in the country.
Thanks to both of you for your answers.
1 month after starting classes, Stanley Ann Dunham, Barack’s mom, at age 17, got pregnant by just-about the only black African man on the entire chain of Hawaiian islands (the 1960 Census shows the population of blacks in Hawaii to be at 0.7 percent)
2 months after getting pregnant, she drops out of college.
3 months after getting pregnant, she marries BHO Sr.
10 months AFTER her first day at the Univ of Hawaii, she gives birth to BHO II at EITHER the Queen's or Kapiolani Medical Center, and immediately LEAVES behind: a) her parents in Honolulu, b) her new husband in Honolulu, and c) her home in Honolulu -- to fly ALONE with a 3-week-old newborn baby 2,800 miles to Seattle to start college at the Univ of Washington
Then ... Stanley Ann Dunham does not return to Hawaii until AFTER BHO Sr left the islands for Harvard, in Fall of 1962.
Even the Obots realize this is an implausible series of events is made even more suspicious in that -NEVER- does Obama Jr in his two books mention that his mom left Hawaii when she was married to BHO Sr, nor does he mention she was EVER in Washington State during their marriage until they were divorced in March 1964 ...
When understood with these facts, the likelihood of Obama being born in Hawaii sounds FAR LESS plausible than Obama NOT being born in Hawaii!
Yes, it’s for real. For now the Judges of the 9th Circuit are all having a meeting so nobody is around SAnta Ana for the next week. In any event, this case will come on calendar in about 60 days.
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