Posted on 07/05/2009 1:32:21 PM PDT by SampleMan
I would welcome fellow Freeper input on an exchange I had with the police last night.
First a little background. I've got 20 years in the military, started out my life giving police officers a great deal of respect and knee jerking to their defense. Over the course of years, however, I've lost a lot of respect for the police via watching continual police traffic violations, watching unprofessional behavior and seeing shows of petty tyranny over their fellow citizens.
Although I'd still like to be wholeheartedly pro-law and think the way to get respectable enforcement officers is to demand professionalism, I find that my opinions here on FR often gets me labeled a "cop hater". Unfortunately, I'm quickly becoming callous to that particular "insult".
So here is my experience from last night. I took my daughters to see the fireworks downtown. Being crowded I sat them up on a 5' tall brick pillar with a 36' flat square top. Shortly after I had two police officers approach me and rudely demand to know if those were my children. I don't react well to rude. Anyway I quickly claimed them and was told, again rudely, to remove them from the pillar. Now this pillar is not on public property, so I asked them if the property owner (CSX railway) had complained, "No" then I asked them if the property owner had asked them to keep people off the pillar, "No". I then told them that I didn't understand the legality of their request. This is when they both puffed up like peacocks.
I was then informed that "They" were making the complaint. At this point I told them that I would comply (and started lifting my girls down), but that they had no basis to make a complaint and were abusing their authority. They didn't take this well and the short man then started screaming that he had the authority as a public servant, to which I calmly pointed out that no one in the public had voiced a complaint, that in fact I was the public, and I failed to see how he was being my servant.
My children had now been on the ground for a while, but apparently frustrated they then began accusing me of endangering my children's safety. To which I calmly acknowledged their opinion, and then asked if they were familiar with the legal precedence of parental authority in such matters.
This is where they both appeared to want to cuff me, so I pointed out that I had complied with their dubious orders, but did not intend to kow tow to their logic. They moved about 20' away and glared at me until the fireworks were over.
Now let me be clear, if anyone from CSX had asked me, or if the officers had conveyed that CSX wished for people to stay off, I would have complied without complaint. My beef is essentially that they took it upon themselves to create a problem where none existed and approached me like a couple of bullies in the school yard. Perhaps its just my age or a push back to the totalitarian nature of our new Federal Government, but I'm in no mood to play the role of the sheep.
OK fire away folks. I'm sure a few of you think that they should have tazed me and put my kids in protective custody for the night.
“If it were me, I would have said yes and taken the kids down. Coppers move on their way. After the coast has cleared, let the kids back up.”
I think I like his response better.
You are stating things that are untrue about the incident. You are stating what you surmise about CSX and the cops, when I have clearly stated that wasn’t the case. If you want to call me a liar, do so, but do not state as fact things that you are making up.
The hell I do. If you want a war with upstanding, law-abiding citizens, you are on the right track. You keep pushing the justification of police state policies, well I'm telling you "NO" I won't comply. I won't kow tow to your petty tyranny. If I'm not breaking the law, not harming a sole and no one is has any complaint with me, leave me the hell alone.
You seem pretty sure of their mandate. They could very well have been rent-a-cops hired by the property owner for specifically that purpose.
Then they were doing a crappy job, as they spent 99.9% of their time standing on public property, and they must have lied when I directly asked them.
Ive given free reign to protect the property rights of absent property owners.
When one enters the property they are invited upon, they are not violating any property rights. Although CSX had many staff coming in and out of the building (hardly absent) no one had a problem with me.
So? This is still not your call. It is the property owners and in his absence, still not yours.
I was invited onto the property and had not been asked to leave or change my behavior, thus not any concern of the police in what manner I act, as long as its legal.
Im not on private property other than my own, or doing something that Im unsure whether the owner would approve of.
Are you saying that FreeRepublic isn't privately held? You are wrong. Get off. I find you unsafe and I think Jim Rob would want you gone. Just following your logic.
And you dont have a badge.
I obey the law sir, not a badge. That last statement of yours says it all. Its all a power trip wrapped around a little piece of tin. I've seen a few officers in the military with that attitude, but thankfully they are very rare.
A badge gives the authority to enforce the law, not write it. If a cop can't give legal justification for his actions he should find a different job.
Good for you. I have a hard time shaking off an abuse of power as a trivial incident. In many ways, the more trivial the more intrusive. What if a policeman walks up to you on the sidewalk and tells you to stop stepping on the cracks or he'll arrest you? That's an extreme example, but perhaps you see my point?
Now I have the opinion there isnt any situation that cannot be made worse by adding a cop. The military tactics, training, weapons and so forth are creating a shoot first and ask questions later environment.
Well, my experience as of late has been the opposite. For instance, our department is soon going to GPS systems in our cars. We will also have cameras and recording devices which I understand will record all of our conversations.
Every conversation that I have at work will be recorded. And I will be held accountable for everything I say.
Being involved in a shooting would probably subject most cops to even more scrutiny. Lately, where I work, most officers who’ve been on awhile are reluctant to get involved in anything. Combine that with more restrictive pursuit and use of force policies, we are being reduced to social workers on wheels.
So, my experience has been the opposite of what you have described. But, that’s just where I work.
From what did you infer that? You are totally making that up. I was having fun with my kids and had no thought at all of confrontational.
A cop, being right or wrong, is never going to let a smart guy with smart comments as yours, get away with showing them up. Its disrespectful to them, and a shame you did that in front of your kids. Had you been drinking?
Smart guy? You mean someone who questions why they are being rudely accosted for doing nothing to anyone? That is a "smart guy" to you? It is unreasonable to ask for a reason, vice just obeying like a servant? I was most respectful, unlike them, but what I wasn't was compliant with their logic (although I did comply with their direction, however illegal).
Shame on you for wanting people to be sheep in front of their children. I showed my children how free people respond in a civil manner to unreasonable demands and unlawful abuse of authority. Indeed, SHAME ON YOU for holding your freedom so cheaply.
And what is it with the charges that I wasn't sober. Does one need to be drunk to be free in this country?
If it were me, I would have said yes and taken the kids down. Coppers move on their way. After the coast has cleared, let the kids back up.
And I'm sure your children would have been most impressed with both your cowardice and your dishonesty.
So who is more evil, our founding fathers or the protesters in Iran?
But just for the record, the authority is the law in this country. Those wearing a badge have no more authority than the law allows.
You have a point.
I'm sure for every reasonable citizen interested in prtotecting his legitimate rights, most cops encounter a couple hundred "don't you know who I am, I pay your salary, wait until my father talks to the DA" drunk/drugged/pumped up jerks.
My strategy when dealing with cops is to get out of the encounter as quickly as possible with as little drama as possible.
If that makes me seem like an obsequious little wimp, so be it, because the time to argue your rights is in front of a judge, with your lawyer present, not on some sidewalk with a short-tempered government employee who will go home after his shift long before you bond out.
Whatever satisfaction you derive from showing the cop what the true meaning of this country is will be lost on him. If he's acting improperly, inform his supervisor. Arguing with beat cops seems like an activity with very little up-side.
well done. I’ve recently had too many instances of cops failing to remember who works for whom. They’ve become nothing but thugs and glorified revenue collectors.
I’m glad you agree. Politeness costs nothing, but nearly always pays divends.
Thank you also for your service to our country. I believe I am much like you, I have a strong respect for authority, have served my country (4 years) and also am becoming cynical and outraged at people who abuse their power.
Having dealt with rude people on police calls for years, I usually ask them, pleasantly, if there is a reason for their rudeness. I then try to turn my contact with them into a positive. Doesn’t always work but more often than not it does.
I know what you mean about being accosted. It does take you aback. Usually my first instinct is to push back. Once I got past that and got used to being insulted, etc. I found I could come to common ground and go away on a positive note. Usually the people apologize for having treated me rudely.
I think that if you politely remind a rude officer about his professionalism (perhaps a technique you would with a subordinate) he is going to realize what he’s doing and square himself away.
If I were the officer I know how it’d work on me. Something along the lines of: “You know officer (use his name), I’m a career Navy Officer and I have respect for law enforcement and the job you do. We both have codes of conduct and professionalism to live up to when talking to the public. Is there any reason (right out of Verbal Judo) for talking to me this way”?
That’d put me back on planet earth real quick. If he keeps it up, ask to speak to his supervisor right there.
Hope it helps, because I don’t like rude cops either. Especially when they are rude for no reason and right from the jump.
Thanks. I had the good fortune to hang out with some old line cops in the early 80’s that were relaxed about almost everything, but if there was a real “situation” they were right there.
Today, I am fortunate to be in a rural area where the sheriff is a local “good old boy” and his deputies my neighbors.
And yet the use of force continues to increase. Perhaps not by people like you but by the SWAT teams which are used more and more.
Best advice I’ve gotten in a long time. Thanks.
Amen. As my FR hero Squantos says: ‘Stay safe.’
Your welcome, you don’t have to, and shouldn’t be expected to, put up with any guff from any cop.
And Thanks! again for your service and sacrifices to our nation.
I think you’re smart. Arguing with a jerky cop will get you absolutely nowhere.
10-4. You too.
Acquiescing to petty tyrants might help ensure that I won't get cuffed or ruffed up...
It means what I said, not having to acquiesce to tyrants, large or small. There are things to tolerate and things not to tolerate. There is no virtue in tolerating abuse of power.
In retrospect, I think that Cap'n Crunch's suggestion here on this thread was a good one. I should have directly confronted their rudeness and not their authority. That said, they had no authority to exercise the power of their positions as they did.
I was a bit impassioned afterward, but I had several wonderful conversations with strangers there. I was able to make that separation.
Of course cops have bad days, but they are not allowed to compensate for that by finding an easy mark to pick on. And instead of sucking it up or moving to an island, I think it far better that they get proper feed back.
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