Posted on 07/05/2009 1:32:21 PM PDT by SampleMan
I would welcome fellow Freeper input on an exchange I had with the police last night.
First a little background. I've got 20 years in the military, started out my life giving police officers a great deal of respect and knee jerking to their defense. Over the course of years, however, I've lost a lot of respect for the police via watching continual police traffic violations, watching unprofessional behavior and seeing shows of petty tyranny over their fellow citizens.
Although I'd still like to be wholeheartedly pro-law and think the way to get respectable enforcement officers is to demand professionalism, I find that my opinions here on FR often gets me labeled a "cop hater". Unfortunately, I'm quickly becoming callous to that particular "insult".
So here is my experience from last night. I took my daughters to see the fireworks downtown. Being crowded I sat them up on a 5' tall brick pillar with a 36' flat square top. Shortly after I had two police officers approach me and rudely demand to know if those were my children. I don't react well to rude. Anyway I quickly claimed them and was told, again rudely, to remove them from the pillar. Now this pillar is not on public property, so I asked them if the property owner (CSX railway) had complained, "No" then I asked them if the property owner had asked them to keep people off the pillar, "No". I then told them that I didn't understand the legality of their request. This is when they both puffed up like peacocks.
I was then informed that "They" were making the complaint. At this point I told them that I would comply (and started lifting my girls down), but that they had no basis to make a complaint and were abusing their authority. They didn't take this well and the short man then started screaming that he had the authority as a public servant, to which I calmly pointed out that no one in the public had voiced a complaint, that in fact I was the public, and I failed to see how he was being my servant.
My children had now been on the ground for a while, but apparently frustrated they then began accusing me of endangering my children's safety. To which I calmly acknowledged their opinion, and then asked if they were familiar with the legal precedence of parental authority in such matters.
This is where they both appeared to want to cuff me, so I pointed out that I had complied with their dubious orders, but did not intend to kow tow to their logic. They moved about 20' away and glared at me until the fireworks were over.
Now let me be clear, if anyone from CSX had asked me, or if the officers had conveyed that CSX wished for people to stay off, I would have complied without complaint. My beef is essentially that they took it upon themselves to create a problem where none existed and approached me like a couple of bullies in the school yard. Perhaps its just my age or a push back to the totalitarian nature of our new Federal Government, but I'm in no mood to play the role of the sheep.
OK fire away folks. I'm sure a few of you think that they should have tazed me and put my kids in protective custody for the night.
So now I have to produce evidence to a third party that my actions aren't contrary to the wishes of the property owner who invited me? Thanks for the police state.
And they are NOT tasked with determining what activity is safe for my children. They are tasked with stopping child abuse. In the above statement you pretty much give free reign to the police to make up legal ordnance as they go. How in the world can that exist in a free state?
It appears the entity either hired off-duty cops, or requested the presence of on-duty cops and allowed them to make the independent determination of what constituted unsafe behavior.
Wrong. They were on public property and walked over to me. When I directly asked them if the property owner wanted me off, they said "NO".
If I am on your property, I have no reason to declare my right to sit on the garden wall. I also have no particular right to request the credentials of someone asking me to remove myself from a wall that is not my own.<
Get the hell off the Internet.... Gosh, I bet you just questioned my authority to order you off of a third party site, didn't you.
“(1) This is not a court of law;”
Nope and the cops didn’t have cause to bother this guy.
“(2) Were not discussing criminal activity, we were discussing the level of proof required of a cop to verify his authority to a member of the public on private property;”
Cops don’t have any authority ono private property unless designated by the owner or a crime is in progress.
“(2) Cops do not have to meet an innocent until proven guilty standard of proof to verify their authority.”
No they just have to verify their authority, period.
>> So now I have to produce evidence to a third party that my actions aren’t contrary to the wishes of the property owner who invited me?
If the third-party is a cop, yes.
>> And they are NOT tasked with determining what activity is safe for my children.
You seem pretty sure of their mandate. They could very well have been rent-a-cops hired by the property owner for specifically that purpose.
>> In the above statement you pretty much give free reign to the police to make up legal ordnance as they go. How in the world can that exist in a free state?
I’ve given free reign to protect the property rights of absent property owners.
>> They were on public property and walked over to me. When I directly asked them if the property owner wanted me off, they said “NO”.
So? This is still not your call. It is the property owner’s — and in his absence, still not yours.
>> Gosh, I bet you just questioned my authority to order you off of a third party site, didn’t you.
I’m not on private property other than my own, or doing something that I’m unsure whether the owner would approve of. And you don’t have a badge.
SnakeDoc
The cop got pissed but loosen the cuff so that they were not digging into the kids wrists...
He was an ass but not stupid....:O)
“Ive given free reign to protect the property rights of absent property owners.”
Say what! That has to be one of the most outrageous things ever said on one of these threads.
“And you dont have a badge.”
Where does the power for that badge come from?
The government you elected. That does not give you direct control.
SnakeDoc
Jesus summed it up pretty easy for us: Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself. Easier said than done though, by us.
Best to you.
FWIW I used to be a huge supporter of the police. Never been arrested, only had 1 ticket which was the result of an accident.
Now I have the opinion there isn’t any situation that cannot be made worse by adding a cop. The military tactics, training, weapons and so forth are creating a shoot first and ask questions later environment.
Sadly there are more controls and oversight on our military acting as police in foreign countries than on our own police forces here.
“The government you elected. That does not give you direct control.”
No and it doesn’t give cops unlimited power or free reign to do whatever they want.
And you wonder why your pay raises don’t get passed at election time.
Nah, Im just smart enough to know when something is worth picking a fight over. Trivial shi- like you described is not worth causing a ruckus over. I would have said ok and moved my kids, had a good time and never given it a second thought.
“There are always a few bad one’s in every occupation..”
Normally I would agree with that, but there are no, none zip, nada cops that aren’t complete tools.
As I read your statement, it sounded like you were puffed up like a peacock, waiting, and wanting to show off your bravado. A cop, being right or wrong, is never going to let a smart guy with smart comments as yours, get away with showing them up. It’s disrespectful to them, and a shame you did that in front of your kids. Had you been drinking?
If it were me, I would have said yes and taken the kids down. Coppers move on their way. After the coast has cleared, let the kids back up.
Here I thought you were the smart one.
Positive contacts by law enforcement has been my overriding goal with each citizen. Of course, no one likes being confronted by the police (traffic stops, ped stops, etc.) So there were those oft occasions when the contact was a total jackass.
Being in uniform, you can't handle a confrontation like you would as a civilian. You shouldn't violate public trust accorded to you and you can't afford to lose your professionalism. Any cop who finds this too hard to deal with needs to find another job.
Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God. So that the one resisting the authority resists the ordinance of God; and the ones who resist will receive judgment to themselves. For the rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the bad. And do you desire to be not afraid of the authority? Do the good, and you shall have praise from it.
(Rom 13:1-3)
LOL. If not me, I know there is one person out there who would be that one glaring exception to your rule.
You are a poopy head.
That said, I am very concerned with the fact that over the last 20 years I've gone from a base assumption of the police being correct, to a base level of cynicism (based mainly on interaction). I am a career Naval Officer with a strong respect for authority, but zero tolerance for abuse of power.
I thank you for your years of service and thank you for not knee-jerk assuming that I must be a cop hating, drunkard with a long history of petty larceny (as some here have).
In retrospect, I probably should have confronted their rudeness vice their legal authority, but I am not practiced at being accosted in such a manner.
No sir. We actually have traffic laws that they are supposed to be enforcing. They are not supposed to be making it up as they go.
Off-duty cops are very often hired to patrol events like this to watch for unsafe behavior. On-duty cops are also occasionally given the same task if an event is big enough to demand police presence.
I'm a grown man, a Commander in the Navy, and the legal guardian of my children. I do not require a nanny to decide what is safe or unsafe for me or my children. I understand that as a society we do make decisions of what is so unsafe as to be illegal, but we do so in a legal manner that applies to everyone equally and is clearly written. What we do not do, what we should not tolerate, is the appointment of special agents to make it up as they go.
How can one obey the law when it is arbitrarily set by the daily judgment of state agents? No offense to police, but having seen their personal lives and children, they certainly hold no special ability to make better decisions than I, which is why they are restricted to only enforcing the law, not their personal thoughts.
If so the cops lied, because my first question was as to whether they were acting at the direction of the property owner and they said, "NO".
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