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Of Milton Friedman and Ayn Rand (Chat)
Vanity

Posted on 02/20/2009 11:07:25 AM PST by mnehring

The economic miracle that has been the United States was not produced by socialized enterprises, by government-union-industry cartels or by centralized economic planning. It was produced by private enterprises in a profit-and-loss system. And losses were at least as important in weeding out failures as profits in fostering successes. Let government succor failures, and we shall be headed for stagnation and decline. -Milton Friedman

When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion - when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing - when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors - when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you - when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice - you may know that your society is doomed.-Ayn Rand


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: friedman; quotes; rand
Feel free to append the wisdom of the ages.
1 posted on 02/20/2009 11:07:25 AM PST by mnehring
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Donahue: When you see around the globe the mal-distribution of wealth, the desperate plight of millions of people in underdeveloped countries, when you see so few haves and so many have-nots, when you see the greed and the concentration of power, did you ever have a moment of doubt about capitalism and whether greed’s a good idea to run on?

Friedman: Well, first of all, tell me is there some society you know that doesn’t run on greed? You think Russia doesn’t run on greed? You think China doesn’t run on greed? What is greed? Of course none of us are greedy; its only the other fellow who’s greedy.

The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn’t construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn’t revolutionize the automobile industry that way. In the only cases in which the masses have escaped from the kind of grinding poverty you’re talking about, the only cases in recorded history are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where the masses are worst off, it’s exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that. So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear: that there is no alternative way so far discovered of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system.

Donahue: But it seems to reward not virtue as much as ability to manipulate the system.

Friedman: And what does reward virtue? You think the communist commissar rewards virtue? You think a Hitler rewards virtue? You think - excuse me, if you will pardon me - do you think American presidents reward virtue? Do they choose their appointees on the basis of the virtue of the people appointed or on the basis of their political clout? Is it really true that political self interest is nobler somehow than economic self interest? You know I think you are taking a lot of things for granted. Just tell me where in the world you find these angels who are going to organize society for us? Well, I don’t even trust you to do that.

2 posted on 02/20/2009 11:13:39 AM PST by mnehring
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To: mnehrling

Sound and video for those quotes:

From the Donahue interview of Friedman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A


3 posted on 02/20/2009 11:25:44 AM PST by Tired of Taxes (Dad, I will always think of you.)
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To: mnehrling
If you like Milton Friedman, you have to hit this link!!!

Free To Choose

4 posted on 02/20/2009 11:27:00 AM PST by Bon mots
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To: mnehrling
When you're done watching that, it's back to the regular programming. All Obama. All the time. Peace be upon him.




5 posted on 02/20/2009 11:28:48 AM PST by Bon mots
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To: mnehrling

I don’t know how anyone could look at the confiscation of wealth and not think it was many times more immoral than greed.

I’ll take a greedy CEO over a tax-greedy politician ANY DAY!

I know my fellow man is looking out for himself—this is a good thing, folks. It is just as nature intended. We survive as individuals not as one entity or group.

Whenever the powermongers have tried to force humans to live for something outside their self-interests it resulted in corruption, stagnation and the deaths of millions.

When someone is trying to sell you “selflessness” you can bet with 99.9 percent certainty that they want you to serve them instead of yourself. They whole “do it for the people” thing is a farce—”the people” end up culled.


6 posted on 02/20/2009 11:44:25 AM PST by Boucheau
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To: mnehrling

I know that Galt’s diatribe is awfully long winded, but I swear that entire book is really a bit of a “life changer”.

It so perfectly crystalizes lots of concepts that I previously saw only vaguely.

It definitely oughta be required reading in every HS in the US.


7 posted on 02/20/2009 11:44:32 AM PST by Pessimist
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To: Pessimist
Here is the short version of his speech:

For twelve years you've been asking "Who is John Galt?" This is John Galt speaking.

I'm the man who's taken away your victims and thus destroyed your world.

You've heard it said that this is an age of moral crisis and that Man's sins are destroying the world.

But your chief virtue has been sacrifice, and you've demanded more sacrifices at every disaster. You've sacrificed justice to mercy and happiness to duty. So why should you be afraid of the world around you?

Your world is only the product of your sacrifices. While you were dragging the men who made your happiness possible [in today's terms he is referring to the business men, the executives, the 'evil rich' with visions and desire to see that vision through to fruition] to your sacrificial altars, I beat you to it.

I reached them first and told them about the game you were playing and where it would take them.

I explained the consequences of your 'brother-love' morality, which they had been too innocently generous to understand. You won't find them now, when you need them more than ever.

We're on strike against your creed of unearned rewards and unrewarded duties [these would be the looters in government and moochers who demand others' earnings because they claim to be needy - ie, welfare class].

If you want to know how I made them quit, I told them exactly what I'm telling you tonight.

I taught them the morality of Reason -- that it was right to pursue one's own happiness as one's principal goal in life.

I don't consider the pleasure of others my goal in life, nor do I consider my pleasure the goal of anyone else's life.

I am a trader. I earn what I get in trade for what I produce.

I ask for nothing more or nothing less than what I earn. That is justice.

I don't force anyone to trade with me; I only trade for mutual benefit.

Force [ie, the force of govt] is the great evil that has no place in a rational world. One may never force another human to act against his/her judgment.

If you deny a man's right to Reason, you must also deny your right to your own judgment.

Yet you have allowed your world to be run by means of force, by men who claim that fear and joy are equal incentives, but that fear and force are more practical.

You've allowed such men to occupy positions of power in your world by preaching that all men are evil from the moment they're born.

When men believe this, they see nothing wrong in acting in any way they please. The name of this absurdity is 'original sin'. That's inmpossible. That which is outside the possibility of choice is also outside the province of morality. To call sin that which is outside man's choice is a mockery of justice.

To say that men are born with a free will but with a tendency toward evil is ridiculous. If the tendency is one of choice, it doesn't come at birth. If it is not a tendency of choice, then man's will is not free.

And then there's your 'brother-love' morality.

Why is it moral to serve others, but not yourself?

If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but not by you?

Why is it immoral to produce something of value and keep it for yourself, when it is moral for others who haven't earned it to accept it? If it's virtuous to give, isn't it then selfish to take?

Your acceptance of the code of selflessness has made you fear the man who has a dollar less than you because it makes you feel that that dollar is rightfully his.

You hate the man with a dollar more than you because the dollar he's keeping is rightfully yours. Your code has made it impossible to know when to give and when to grab.

You know that you can't give away everything and starve yourself. You've forced yourselves to live with undeserved, irrational guilt.

Is it ever proper to help another man? No, if he demands it as his right or as a duty that you owe him. Yes, if it's your own free choice based on your judgment of the value of that person and his struggle. [This is the real difference between liberals and conservatives!]

This country wasn't built by men who sought handouts. In its brilliant youth, this country showed the rest of the world what greatness was possible to Man and what happiness is possible on Earth.

Then it began apologizing for its greatness and began giving away its wealth, feeling guilty for having produced more than its neighbors.

Twelve years ago, I saw what was wrong with the world and where the battle for Life had to be fought. I saw that the enemy was an inverted morality and that my acceptance of that morality was its only power. I was the first of the men who refused to give up the pursuit of his own happiness in order to serve others.

To those of you who retain some remnant of dignity and the will to live your lives for yourselves, you have the chance to make the same choice. Examine your values and understand that you must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil.

If you've understood what I've said, stop supporting your destroyers. Don't accept their philosophy. Your destroyers hold you by means of your endurance, your generosity, your innocence, and your love. Don't exhaust yourself to help build the kind of world that you see around you now. In the name of the best within you, don't sacrifice the world to those who will take away your happiness for it.

The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:

I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man,
nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.

8 posted on 02/20/2009 11:47:24 AM PST by mnehring
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To: mnehrling

“I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.”

Ah, music to my eyes!


9 posted on 02/20/2009 12:21:55 PM PST by Boucheau
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To: Boucheau
Ah, music to my eyes!

I am not even going to try to approach doing an NLP primary cogitative analysis of that. :->

10 posted on 02/20/2009 12:25:18 PM PST by mnehring
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To: mnehrling

:)


11 posted on 02/20/2009 12:58:43 PM PST by Boucheau
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To: mnehrling
Your destroyers hold you by means of your endurance, your generosity, your innocence, and your love.

Destroyers do not play to these qualities of a person. Those are our strengths. Destroyers prey upon weaknesses and passions. Greed, lust, envy, sloth.

Rand's rage against the divine peeking through. Atheism. The religion of 'me'. The official church of communism.

There's nothing wrong with personal gain. There are two types of people who typically gain the most. There are people who gain by serving others. And then there are people who gain by serving themselves at others' expense.


12 posted on 02/20/2009 3:21:07 PM PST by CowboyJay (Blame me. I didn't vote for Perot.)
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To: CowboyJay

I think you misunderstand her point with this. This is a case where she discusses how the collectivists ensnare producers by holding them back on their main strengths. They do it by what you say, it is almost yin-yang. They attack a producer’s generosity by accusing them of being greedy. They accuse a producer’s love by accusing them of being hateful, etc.

I have read and studied Rand all my life and I don’t see her having a rage against God or religion, only a conflict through her own definition of rationalism. I actually find no conflict in being an Objectivist politically and a Christian. I don’t believe all of Objectivist philosophy, but we all have things with we disagree with, with Republicans or Libertarians as well.


13 posted on 02/20/2009 3:34:18 PM PST by mnehring
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To: mnehrling
Everybody's objective from their own point of view. XD Rand's an excellent author. Some of my favorite passages about the evils of government come from her. I guess maybe my opinion of some of the values in her work are colored by atheists I've known in my own life. They are angry at God. They asked for a loved one to be spared, and they were taken anyway. Another common theme is betrayal by their fathers.

Their wants were not met, so they turned inward. Became 'self'-ish. As a result some become caught in the trap of self-servitude. Unless your career goal is hunter-gatherer, it's not a successful worldview. I was going through similar struggles at about the time I first read Rand so it really resonated with me.

But anyway, back to the topic...

I enjoy Rand's protagonists, but I think they miss the point themselves. Roark and Galt are not ultimately heroic because of self-servitude or blind ambition. They are heroic because their exercises in individualism are of maximum service to their fellows. Roark creates masterful buildings that suit the needs of their inhabitants to a 'T'. Galt creates a place where he and his fellow man can enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Roark fought collectivism. Galt fought the state. Roark served others through his work.

Galt served others by creating a just nation as viewed through his eyes. Neither served self at the expense of others.

Whether they meant to be or not, they're both 'do-gooders'.
14 posted on 02/20/2009 5:14:25 PM PST by CowboyJay (Blame me. I didn't vote for Perot.)
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