Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Let's talk about the F-104 Starfighter

Posted on 02/15/2009 1:26:24 PM PST by mowowie

The F-104 Starigher and all it's variants. Todays Sunday reading obsession.

I wanna hear from the FR pro's!

From what I have read so far, The plane had spectacular abilities coupled with very un-desired effects.


TOPICS: Cheese, Moose, Sister; Chit/Chat; Military/Veterans; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: f104; inteceptor
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-69 last
To: omega4179

I don’t know much about their use of the 104, but I have nothing but respect for the German army, their weapons were far superior to ours(small arms I mean)during the time I was stationed in Germany(1959 to 1960).


61 posted on 02/15/2009 6:04:21 PM PST by calex59
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: 50mm
Not only did the USAF have squadrons, the Starfighter flew in VietNam.

Yep. My dad was a boom operator and would bring back photos of some of the planes he had refueled while overseas. I still have a couple of pictures of F-104s being refueled over Vietnam.

62 posted on 02/15/2009 6:14:46 PM PST by Skooz (Gabba Gabba we accept you we accept you one of us Gabba Gabba we accept you we accept you one of us)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: hoagy62

Dadfreakinggum


63 posted on 02/15/2009 6:21:20 PM PST by Skooz (Gabba Gabba we accept you we accept you one of us Gabba Gabba we accept you we accept you one of us)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: mowowie

Rumor has it that F-104s will be modernized for future combat roles in a two seater version...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlAsSyDAWR8&feature=related


64 posted on 02/15/2009 6:40:34 PM PST by Redcitizen (In this world there's two kinds of people: Those with loaded guns and those who dig...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mowowie
Some stuff from an Indian/Brit mil forum:



The Missile With A Man In It

by Robert Guttman

Starfighters saw their principle combat use with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), which used them in two wars against India, in 1965 and in 1971. The PAF's experience over Kashmir was more significant than U.S. Air Force's over Vietnam because its F-104s were the first ones to engage in the type of air combat for which they had been designed.

Pakistan acquired its Starfighters as a direct result of the Soviet downing of an American U-2 spy plane that had been based in Peshawar in 1960. Understandably annoyed at the Pakistanis for allowing the Americans to use their country as a base for espionage missions, the Soviets threatened to target Pakistan for nuclear attack if such activities continued. Taking the threat seriously, the United States agreed to provide Pakistan with enough surplus F-104A interceptors to equip one squadron.

Although the Starfighters were intended to defend Pakistan from high-flying Soviet bombers coming over the Hindu Kush Mountains, their actual combat use would be under quite different circumstances. In the summer of 1965, a dispute involving the sovereignty over the Vale of Kashmir - smoldering between India and Pakistan for quite a few years erupted into full-scale war. At that time the PAF had about 140 combat aircraft, mostly American built, including the F-104A with the No.9 Squadron. Facing them was the Indian Air Force (IAF), with about 500 aircraft of mostly British and French manufacture. The IAF had also begun to acquire Mig-21Fs, new Soviet interceptors capable of Mach 2, but only 9 of them were operational with the No.28 Squadron in September 1965, and they saw little use.

The war, which lasted from August 15 to September 22, 1965, did little for either side except waste lives and material. Pakistan used the F-104As primarily for combat air patrols (CAP), usually consisting of two Sidewinder-equipped F-86F Sabres, with a Starfighter to provide top cover. The F-104As occasionally provided escort to PAF's Martin B-57B Canberra bombers or reconnaissance aircraft and sometimes flew high-speed photoreconnaissance missions themselves.

Indian pilots were initially intimidated by the formidable reputation of the Pakistan's Mach 2 interceptors. In their first aerial encounter on September 3, two PAF F-86s battled six IAF Hawker Siddeley Gnats while an F-104A, flown by Flying Officer Abbass Mirza, darted around above, vainly trying to get a shot at one of the elusive Gnats. When a second F-104A arrived, however, one of the Gnats, flown by Squadron Leader Brij Pal Singh Sikand, suddenly descended and landed on the airfield at Pasrur.

The first air-to-air victory by an F-104A - or by any Mach 2 airplane - came on September 6, when Flight Lt. Aftab Alam Khan, disobeying orders by descending below 10,000 feet, downed one Dassault Mystere IVA fighter-bomber with a Sidewinder at an altitude of 5,000 feet and damaged a second. During attacks on Rawalpindi and Peshawar by IAF English Electric Canberras that night, three F-104s tried to intercept them but failed to get a target acquisition because the bombers were too low. During an Indian attack on Sargodha air base, however, Flight Lt. Amjad Hussain Khan used his cannon to destroy a Mystere IVA, killing Squadron Leader A. B. Devayya of No.1 Squadron of IAF. Debris from the exploding Mystere struck the Starfighter, however, and Amjad was forced to eject at low altitude. He had reason to be grateful that his F-104A did not have the original downward-firing ejection seat - otherwise, his subsequent award of the Sitara-i-Jurat would probably have been posthumous.

On the night of September 13-14, Squadron Leader Mervyn Leslie Middlecoat achieved the first blind night interception in an F-104, firing a sidewinder at a Canberra from a distance of 4,000 feet and reporting an explosion, but failed to obtain a confirmation. Another Starfighter was lost on September 17, when Flying Officer G.O. Abassi tried to land in a sudden dust storm, undershot the runway and crashed in a ball of fire. Miraculously, he was thrown clear, still strapped in his ejection seat, and survived with only minor injuries.

On September 21, in the last days of the war, Flying Officer Jamal A. Khan finally got to use the Starfighter in the manner for which it had originally been designed, scoring a solid Sidewinder hit on a Canberra at 33,000 feet over Fazilka. The Indian navigator was killed, but the pilot, Flight Lt. M.M. Lowe, bailed out and was taken prisoner.


During the course of the Kashmir War, No. 9 Squadron a total of 246 sorties, of which 42 were at night. The F-104As gave a good account for themselves on the whole but criticism was raised over their insufficient maneuverability, lack of ground-attack capability and the inefficiency of their radars at low altitudes. The Pakistanis had actually gotten much more value out of their older Sabres, which could be used for both air combat and ground attack.

Hostilities again broke out between India and Pakistan on December 3, 1971, this time over the secession of East Pakistan, now Bangladesh. Once again, the IAF outnumbered the PAF by nearly 5 to 1. More significant, however, the qualitative advantage enjoyed by the PAF in 1965 had been considerably reduced. For all intents and purposes, the F-104A had been the only supersonic fighter in service over the subcontinent in 1965. Since then, India's Hindustan Aeronautics, Ltd., had been producing improved model Mig-21FLs under license. By 1971, the Mig-21 had become the most important fighter in the IAF, with 232 in service, enough to equip nine squadrons. In addition, the IAF had six squadrons of Soviet-built Sukhoi Su-7BM supersonic fighter-bombers.

Pakistan had managed to acquire enough F-104As from the Royal Jordanian Air Force to keep the No. 9 Squadron operational, but the Starfighter was no longer Pakistan's only supersonic fighter. By 1971, PAF had three squadrons of French-built Mirage IIIEJ, and three squadrons of unique Shenyang F-6s - illegal Chinese copies of Russia's Mig-19F, which the Pakistanis had improved with British Martin-Baker ejection seats and American Sidewinder missiles. In addition, the Pakistanis had replaced their older F-86Fs with five squadrons of a more potent version, the Canadair Sabre Mark 6, acquired via West Germany and Iran.

The air war began in earnest on December 3, when the PAF launched strikes against 10 Indian air bases but failed to eliminate the IAF with that one blow. When the IAF struck back the next day, No. 9 Squadron downed a Gnat and a Su-7 over Sargodha. During an attack on a radar installation at Amritsar on December 5, No. 9 Squadron suffered its first loss of the war to anti-aircraft fire. Flight Lt. Amjad Hussain Khan ejected from his F-104 and was taken prisoner. Wing Commander Arif Iqbal scored an unusual Starfighter victory during a raid on Okha Harbor on December 10, when he downed a land-based Breguet Alize turboprop anti-submarine patrol plane of the Indian Navy over the Gulf of Kutch.

A particularly significant air battle took place on the afternoon of December 12, when a pair of F-104A s tried to strafe the Indian airfield at Jamnagar and themselves were attacked by two Mig-21FLs of No. 47 Squadron, IAF. One F-104 fled northward and the other sped southwest over the Gulf of Kutch with Flight Lt. Bharat Bhushan Soni in pursuit. Applying full afterburner to his Mig, Soni fired a K-13 missile, but the F-104 evaded it and turned sharply to the right and closing to 300 meters, Soni fired three bursts from his GSh-23 cannon, then watched the stricken plane pull up. The pilot ejected and parachuted into the shark-infested Gulf of Kutch. Soni called for a rescue launch, but no traces of his opponent, Wing Comdr. Middlecoat, a decorated veteran of the 1965 war, was ever found. The Starfighter had clearly been unable to outaccelerate or outrun the Mig-21 at low altitude. It was equally clear that Indian pilots were no longer intimidated by the F-104.

That fact was demonstrated again on the last day of the war, December 17, when No. 9 Squadron's Starfighters clashed with Mig-21s of No. 29 Squadron, IAF. Squadron Leader I. S. Bindra claimed an F-104, though in fact it escaped with damage. In a later flight over Umarkot, Flight Lt. N. Kukresa made a similar premature claim on an F-104, but when he was attacked in turn by another Starfighter, Flight Lt. A. Datta blew it off his tail, killing Flight Lt. Samad Ali Changezi. Interestingly, while no Migs were downed by Starfighters during the war, one was reportedly shot down by an F-6 on December 14. Another Mig-21 lost a dogfight with a Sabre flown by Flight Lt. Maqsood Amir of No. 16 Squadron, PAF, on December 17 - the Indian pilot, Flight Lt. Harish Singjhi, bailed out and was taken prisoner.


Aviation experts throughout the world followed the 1971 Indo-Pakistan War with great interest. The Starfighter was still the mainstay of most of the NATO air forces at that time, and for years there had been a great deal of conjecture about how the Lockheed fighter would fare against modern Soviet equipment. Admittedly, the F-104Gs and F-104Ss used in Europe were far more potent then the elderly F-104As operated by the Pakistan. There could no longer be any doubt, however, that the Starfighter was no match for the Mig-21, particularly in maneuverability.

More here

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-5936.html

From Chapter 5 of the 1965 war of BR:



The Indian Air Force (IAF)

Pakistan Air Force (PAF)

As pilots are told not to indulge in personal heroics and the priority is to save the aircraft and oneself, most pilots would have opted for the latter. But Devayya described as an unusual type of character, one of those second world war types, was not like most pilots.

The action was short and swift, Hussain got behind Devayya's Mystere and let loose both Sidewinders, but Devayya deftly evaded both the missiles. Dumbfounded, Hussain stuck fired his six-barreled Vulcan cannon and was delighted to see the shells hit the Mystere. Convinced that the stricken aircraft was doomed, Hussain broke off to search for the other Mysteres in the vicinity. But Devayya had in fact survived the attack, his aircraft was still flyable and there was every chance of flying back home or ejecting successfully.

Instead Devayya went after Hussain's Starfighter. Hussain noticed the Mystere coming in and thought it was another of the raiders and turned around to take it out.

Devayya lost no time in getting the F-104 in his Mystere's sights and he fired cannon shells into the F-104. Flt. Lt. Amjad Hussain cursed himself as he punched out of the flaming Starfighter. He never had the idea of the pilot who had shot him down.

Only later did it strike Taneja, that Devayya was missing as a victim of war. He was listed MIA and hope persisted that he must have bailed out and taken POW. Devayya's exceptional act of gallantry and fighting spirit lay unknown to the world. He was declared dead, as customary, in 1966. He was finally conferred the Maha Vir Chakra in April 1988 for his bravery.




4 starfighters were shotdown by Mig21s in 1971.The only Mig21 shotdown during aircombat was by a sidewinder.The Mig21 vs Starfighter story is given here in more detail:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Features/MiG-21.html




No.29 Scorpions were posted in detachments to Uttarlai, Hindon and Sirsa. No.47 Black Archers sent a six aircraft detachment to Jamnagar. It was with the southwestern sector the MiG was to draw blood. On at least four occasions the MiGs encountered aerial combat and came out on tops. The first of these occurred on December 12th.

No. 47 sent a detachment of six MiG-21s to be based at Jamnagar at the outbreak of the war. Wg. Cdr. H.S. Gill was the commanding officer of this squadron and he had such able men like Sqn. Ldr. Vinay Kapila, VrC, a pilot who had a Sabre kill under his belt from the 1965 war, as his senior flight leader. The detachment had practiced their scrambles and attacks for months to come and they were about to be put to test.

On December 12th at around 2 p.m. in the afternoon, observation posts near Kutch reported two PAF Starfighters cross the coastline in an apparent sneak attack on Jamnagar. The early discovery of the intruders gave time for the MiG-21s to scramble. The MiGs which take about 1 minute and 45 seconds to get airborne were immediately launched and four of them were immediately put into the air.

One section was led by Flt. Lt. Bharat Bhushan Soni (C705) who had Flt. Lt. Saigal as wingman and Vinay Kapila flew the other section. It was Soni who spotted the Starfighters first. One of them flown by Wg. Cdr. Mervyn Middlecoat SJ, PAF an experienced flight instructor in the Pakistani Air Force was diving in to attack the airfields targets.

Soni on spotting the Starfighter engaged reheat and rolled into a diving turn behind the Starfighter. Meanwhile Saigal reported that the other Starfighter had aborted its attack and flew in the general direction of Pakistan.

Meanwhile Middlecoat, on noticing the MiG coming onto the tail, broke off the attack on the airfield and rolled into a turn to shake off the MiG. Soni pulled the MiG into a tighter turn well inside his opponents and launched his K-13s. However the Starfighter deflected the missiles by using flares. At this point the Starfighter broke out of the turn and engaged reheat, skimming the surface of the Arabian Sea at low level. Soni again engaging maximum reheat closed in on the Starfighter and gave a long burst with his cannon. Flashes indicated strikes and as the Starfighter wobbled out of controlled flight, Middlecoat had ejected. The Starfighter crashed into the sea. Middlecoat came down into the sea and was never found, even though rescue vessels were sent into the Arabian Sea.

This was the first instance in which the MiG-21 met the Starfighter in combat. And in this first encounter it came out on the top. However No.47 Sqn did pay its price, Wg. Cdr. H.S. Gill, was shot down by AA Fire over Badin on December 14 while flying C705. His wingmen V. Kapila, I.J.S. Boparai and B.B. Soni could just watch in dismay as the stricken MiG plunged into a sand dune.



This unusually camouflaged MiG-21 [C992] takes off for a sortie during the 1971 War. Armed with K-13 AAMs and a 23mm cannon, MiG-21s took out six air-to-air kills during the war, losing only one MiG-21 in air-to-air combat. The IAF lost six MiG-21s on the western sector and two in the eastern sector. All but one to ack-ack fire.

No.47 Sqn did not encounter anymore air combat. It was left to No.29 from Uttarlai to mop up the opposition in this sector. No.29 Sqn was sent to Uttarlai at the outbreak of the war. Based at Uttarlai were Maruts of No.10 Sqn and some Gnats which were used to air defence role. Uttarlai received a fair share of enemy attention including one particular daring raid in which a Marut was shot up while on the take off run by Starfighters. Luckily the pilot extricated himself from the burning aircraft in time. The Scorpions had to wait until the last three days of the war to draw their first blood. Mr. Pushpindar Singh narrates the details of the first encounter in this sector

"Prior to the afternoon of 16 December MiG-21s escorting HAL HF-24 Maruts on lo-lo-lo profile ground attack missions had also flown at low altitude, normally pulling up to 500 m (1700 ft) and establishing a CAP circuit while the Maruts went into attack, but on this occasion the two MiG-21s detailed as escort for four Maruts on a low level strike mission against targets along the Naya Chor-Mirpur axis flew at about 6,560 ft (2000 m). After strafing enemy vehicles and gun pit just beyond the bomb line, the Marut leader elected to drift further west in a quest for targets of opportunity.

As the Maruts established an attack pattern, one of the Mig-21 pilots Flt. Lt Samar Bikram Shah(Guess who?), spotted what he took to be a Cessna 0-1 Bird Dog. Descending in low level tight turn to confirm the identity of the aircraft, Shah, glancing back instinctively to ensure that his tail was clear, saw two MiG-19s closing at six o'clock and at a distance of about 1640 yards (1500 m), while a third MiG-19 was perched higher. With his MiG-21 now down to about 650 feet (200 m), Shah immediately engaged reheat and pulled up the nose of his fighter. The two MiG-19s that had been closing with Shah's aircraft made no attempt to follow the MiG-21 in its vertical maneuver but, instead, dipped their noses and commenced flying in a tight circle some 160 ft (50 m) above the flat desert terrain, the third MiG-19 in the meanwhile disappeared.

Shah's companion Flying Officer Dinesh Arora, called in that he was covering the Maruts which had completed their attack and were heading back at low level, so Shah decided to take on the PAF aircraft, carrying out four or five yo-yos in an attempt not to overshoot the MiG-19s, noting that the second PAF fighter was evidently having difficulty keeping position with his No. 1 and was mushing badly. After some seconds, the second MiG-19 gave up the attempt to stay with his No 1 and headed away practically on the deck. The MiG-19 leader continued a half circle and, too, broke away in the direction, as it happened of a Marut. This gave Shah the opportunity to get behind the PAF fighter, firing a burst of 23-mm cannonfire from about 650 yards (600 m) at a high angle off, the MiG-19 immediately turning over and flying straight into the ground.

The "Chukker" and low level chase had lasted some three minutes, and dangerously low on fuel, Shah put his MiG-21 into climbing 180 deg turn, gaining as much sky as possible before cutting down on engine rpm, reached his base with the fuel gauges tapping empty, went straight in to land and exhausted his last fuel as he taxied to dispersal."

On December 17th, the last day of the war, the Scorpions were to end their role in the conflict in a dramatic way. Sqn. Ldr. Iqbal Singh Bindra was airborne on the early morning CAP over Uttarlai in the Rajasthan Sesert when the ground controller alerted him about a low-lying intruder coming in from the north towards the airfield. The aircraft, was now identified as a Starfighter as it rose to 1000 feet altitude in its run to the airfield. Bindra pulled his MiG in a wide turn engaging the afterburner which bought him astern of the Starfighter.

Bindra launched his first K-13 which was evaded by the Starfighter. Bindra launched his second K-13 which overtook the Starfighter and exploded near the cockpit, due to the proximity fuse. The F-104 now wavered and appeared to go out of control. Bindra engaged reheat closed in and gave a cannon burst at a high deflection before breaking away. The F-104 now doomed, rapidly descended and crashed into some dunes and exploded some 8 km from the airfield in our territory.

Hardly as the elation over this kill died off, came another encounter. An hour after Bindra's kill, two MiGs were launched as an escort to four Maruts on a ground attack mission. The MiGs were being flown by Flt. Lt. Niraj "Kuki" Kukreja and Flt. Lt. Arun K. Datta.

On approaching Umarkot, Kukreja spotted two bogeys dead ahead and called out a warning on the R/T. Datta saw two rapidly growing dots head-on and observed a smoke trail emerge from one of the closing in dots. The Starfighter had launched a sidewinder head-on in panic. Datta engaged the afterburner and pulled up in a steep climb to 5000 feet and then half rolled onto his back.

The Starfighter had by then pulled up and passed by at amazing speed. Datta could make out it was camouflaged in the sandy desert scheme, a probable candidate from the Royal Jordanian Air Force. The Starfighter now went into a turn and tried to get behind Kukreja's MiG. Datta warned over the R/T "hard starboard, bogey behind you, 2000 meters and closing".

Kukreja who was going after the second bogey now engaged maximum afterburner and was able to maintain the distance between them. Now the first Starfighter broke off Kukreja's tail and headed for low level with Datta following him. At an low altitude of some 1600 feet, Datta closed in on the Starfighter and achieving his missile lock, launched both the K-13s. He was already switching over to his gun, incase the missiles missed when the Starfighter exploded.

The Maruts were already warned of the presence of the Starfighters and that the MiGs were engaging them. Kukreja in fact was on the tail of the second bogey. Earlier the first F-104 took a shot at Kukreja's MiG and missed. Now in the desert skies the F-104 and the MiG were flying tail chase barely 150 feet above ground. The Starfighter can outrun the MiG at this altitude using reheat. Kukreja launched his first K-13 which missed. The second K-13 exploded besides the F-104, obviously injuring the pilot. Seconds later the stricken F-104 crashed into the sand dunes witnessed by hundreds of ground troops in the area. The MiGs rejoined their Maruts and resumed regular mission profile.

Three encounters and four kills against the Starfighter established that the MiG-21FL could outclass its nearest NATO rival the F-104. The only regret the IAF had is not encountering the PAF's Mirage IIIs in one-to-one combat. The IAF was sure it would have addressed the unfair reputation the MiG suffered in the middle-east. Pakistan had admitted the loss of three pilots flying the Starfighter. They include, besides Wg. Cdr. Middlecoat, Sqn. Ldr. Amjad Khan who was shot down by AA fire at Amritsar and captured as a POW. And Flt. Lt. Changezi whose details are not known.

Indian intelligence had reported the transfer of 12 Starfighters from the Royal Jordanian Air Force's No.9 Sqn, and the Starfighters shot down by the Uttarlai-based fighters, were reported to have been from this transfer. The Jordanian Starfighters sported a sandy desert camouflage scheme while the original PAF Starfighters had an all metal scheme.

US reports mentioned the transfer of ten F-104s during the conflict from the RJAF No.9 Sqn. Four of these aircraft returned after the war, signifying either losses or transfer to the PAF. The IAF claims four of these aircraft as kills.

The IAF lost six MiGs on the western front. All but one to A-A fire. The only MiG-21 lost in air combat in the war was in the western sector. Apparently this was lost to a PAF F-86 Sabre, which knocked it down by a Sidewinder. The pilot, Flt. Lt. Tejwant Singh, ejecting to become a POW. This feat is remarkable, but not unmatched on the Indian side. The example of Sqn. Ldr. A.B. Devayya smoking out a F-104 over Sargodha in 1965 is well known.

There were at least two occasions when Gnats took out a F-104 and a Mirage III over Pathankot AFB, damaging them severely. And the MiG lost was the only one lost in air combat. Of the six MiGs that were lost during the war on the western front, five pilots got killed or became POWs with one pilot Sqn. Ldr. Denzil Keelor who ejected recovered safely.

After the war, Flt. Lt. Harish Singhji and Fg. Off. Tejwant Singh who were POWs, were repatriated. The loss of six MiGs include one MiG lost to friendly fire, due to a mistake in identifying Flt. Lt. A.B. Dhavle of No.1 Sqn during a night raid. This was the only tragic postscript in the excellent record of the MiGs. The sixth pilot was Flt. Lt. P.K. Sahu who was lost to AA Fire.

65 posted on 02/15/2009 9:37:29 PM PST by MyTwoCopperCoins (I don't have a license to kill; I have a learner's permit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PSYCHO-FREEP
I also believe the F-104 design was modified with a reverse vertical stabilizer, using the forward slanted wings, they called it the X-27 Lancer. they also installed a larger and better engine. (General Electric J79)

Actually the F-104 used the J79. The Lancer was to have the Pratt&Whitney PW1120 - basically a small fan F100 designed to slot into the same hole as a J79, but with thrust intermediate between the J79 and the F100

The PW1120 was contemplated for reengining a lot of 70s aircraft; McD F-4 and IAI Kfir among them.

66 posted on 02/16/2009 8:00:04 AM PST by Oztrich Boy ( As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities. - D)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: alfa6

Some GREAT pictures.
Thank you!


67 posted on 02/16/2009 9:36:48 AM PST by mowowie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Redcitizen

The deadly “Death Blossom”
I remember it well.


68 posted on 02/16/2009 9:43:17 AM PST by mowowie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: MyTwoCopperCoins

Good Stuff.
Thank you.


69 posted on 02/16/2009 10:20:50 AM PST by mowowie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-69 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson